SFO Terminology and Form I


#1

Hello:

In the sfo constitutions many identifiers are used to identify the people in the fraternity.
I would like to know: Has the constitution has a reference.

1/What is the definition of a "brother and sister".?
2/What is the definition of a "member", "aspirant".?
3/What is a "candidate"?.
4/In article 37 newcomers are brothers and sisters, but are aspirants in 39.
5/Are the brothers and sisters in 37 the same mentioned in article 58?

I guess the juxtaposing here implies the same process to plead a case has one who is professed. Certainly this would be the ideal and a show of sensitivity to the recognition that the subject is primarily a baptized member of the Catholic faith and deserving of all judicial rights. The fact being the Order is intrinsically his.

6/How is conflict of interest reconciled in regards to spiritual directors holding two offices,ie(personal direction as well has decision makers) in the fraternity. The Church is uncomfortable with such dual duties. It says at least the SD should state outright to the candidate that there could be a conflict. (ref:www.virtus.org/virtus/pastoralconduct.pdf).

Discussion:

 How is this decision an example "living the gospel/church?. 

 How can a candidate be reassured that what he says in discretion to him will not impact the SD's counsel decision to accept him? 

In 7 and 8, we owe it to the Catholic....

7/Since a whole years striving is a scholastic effort in convincing a body of one's eligibility to the profession, why is there not a milestone system adopted for the candidate to determine his accomplishments to date. You will remember that such a liberty in favor of the fraternity is used when faults are noted by being informing of him of them promptly. (Reminds me of some draconian boarding schools.)

8/ What provision is made to ensure the professed are well trained in character and personality types, a person is not faulted for his inability to express himself (articulate a very complex conceptual subject such has spirituality), of not only reading what a person is saying but what he is trying to say? Are they experienced in discerning within a candidate a personal revelation or charism?

9/Are SFO fraternities prone to stereotyping? Are final acceptance decisions made in part by an unconscious desire to admit a certain personality type?

Thanks for the answers. :)


#2

First I would like to say that if you are so interested in the Constitutions just out of curiosity that is one thing. If you are discerning a vocation then I highly suggest not worrying about the Constitution. Discerning a vocation involves prayer, meditation on the charism, on whether you are called, etc. If you are nitpicking rules then this vocation may not be for you.

First off the constitutions are just a clarification of the Rule and specifics about daily life of a member and the fraternity. Yes there are books and other things that clarify each portion of the Rule and the Constitutions.

[quote="djames99, post:1, topic:270272"]
Hello:
1/What is the definition of a "brother and sister".?

[/quote]

Depends on context. Brother and Sister usually refers to anyone. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometimes within the constitution it refers to people looking at SFO, other times it refers to actual members etc.

2/What is the definition of a "member", "aspirant".?

Member usually refers to someone that has completed at least the visitation and inquiry stage. "Professed" member usually refers to someone that has completed the Candidacy phase and made their permanent profession. A person that has completed inquiry can do anything a "Professed" member can do except vote or hold office. Sometimes member may be just used as shorthand to both professed and non-professed or one of those, depending on context.

Aspirant is someone seeking to be a member of SFO. Can be any of the stages before permanent profession.

3/What is a "candidate"?.

Similar to aspirant in some contexts, usually refers to someone after the Inquiry stage.

4/In article 37 newcomers are brothers and sisters, but are aspirants in 39.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Like I said before, everything depends on context.

5/Are the brothers and sisters in 37 the same mentioned in article 58?

Section 58 in context would only be talking about professed members. If need be candidates can still be rejected by the fraternity or remove themselves from the process. No formal procedure is required.

...The fact being the Order is intrinsically his.

There is not right to be in an Order. The fraternity/Order may determine that the vocation is not real. If a fraternity feels a calling is not true you can always approach another fraternity.

6/How is conflict of interest reconciled in regards to spiritual directors holding two offices,ie(personal direction as well has decision makers) in the fraternity. ...

Not sure what your issue is here. There are two types of items in SFO. The "Spiritual Assistant" and "Spiritual Directors". A "Spiritual Assistant" is usually a Franciscan from one of the non-SFO Franciscan Orders, that assists the Fraternity. It is highly suggested that they be from one of the non-SFO Franciscan Orders but it isn't a requirement. They are on the council but don't usually vote. There is no conflict of interest. He/she is out to assist the fraternity in living the Franciscan charism.

A spiritual director is someone you find on your own. They are supposed to have undergone complex training to become a spiritual director. There is no requirement that you go to or have any particular person as your spiritual director. Your spiritual director can be your parish priest, your parish deacon, a Franciscan Conventual brother/priest, a Poor Clare nun or a friend that has undergone the training. It is up to you. If you picked someone that sits on the Fraternity council or someone like that, the training is supposed to tell them how to deal with conflicts.

Discussion:

 How is this decision an example "living the gospel/church?. 

Not sure what you mean.

 How can a candidate be reassured that what he says in discretion to him will not impact the SD's counsel decision to accept him? 

If you spiritual director is a priest and you said it in confession, then the seal of confessional comes into play. If your spiritual director is not a priest, there is no guarantee, but from what I understand there are promises and stuff that people that take the official training to be spiritual directors take to become one. There is no requirement to have a spiritual director to enter SFO. It is highly suggested. You do have to get a recommendation from someone like a pastor, someone in the Franciscan community, etc. before joining.

In 7 and 8, we owe it to the Catholic....

7/Since a whole years striving ...

Discernment is a long process. You could find you go through the entire process and come up to the day of your permanent profession and find out that you aren't really called. If you feel that your time doing this is lost then maybe it isn't for you. Any time investigating your spiritual life should be viewed as a win/win situation. Making sure you are doing the right thing is part of the process and should be viewed as a good thing.

8/ What provision is made to ensure the professed are well trained in character and personality types...

No guarantees on anything. Most formation teams are pretty experienced and have seen many people of different types. There are guidelines, checklists, and things like that. Sometimes it can be gut feels and things like that. The decision isn't just one person, it is the formation team, the council, and possibly the sponsor that is picked by the candidate upon entering candidacy.

9/Are SFO fraternities prone to stereotyping? Are final acceptance decisions made in part by an unconscious desire to admit a certain personality type?

Not from what I have seen. But like any organization run by humans there can be bad apples.


#3

Just as an FYI, there is an entire social group for discussing Franciscan Spirituality and it contains a thread for asking questions about SFO. Feel free join and post there if you want.

forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=33


#4

This is not chiefly aimed at Marauder’s words above, but at all SFOs who use this type of language. Please consider phrasing it different.

First the insistence that the Constitution and by extension the Rule is less important than prayer/reflection/etc is silly. It all goes hand in hand. I’m always happy to have some one visit who has done their homework and at least has some basic concepts and information under their belts.

The second and larger complaint is the whole, “then you lack vocation” slogan. That analysis belongs at the start and at the end and all points in between with the fraternity’s Council. Outside of the Council an individual SFO is demonstrating a lack of charity and giving a negative impression upon the Order.


#5

[quote="Kevin812, post:4, topic:270272"]
This is not chiefly aimed at Marauder's words above, but at all SFOs who use this type of language. Please consider phrasing it different.

First the insistence that the Constitution and by extension the Rule is less important than prayer/reflection/etc is silly. It all goes hand in hand. I'm always happy to have some one visit who has done their homework and at least has some basic concepts and information under their belts.

The second and larger complaint is the whole, "then you lack vocation" slogan. That analysis belongs at the start and at the end and all points in between with the fraternity's Council. Outside of the Council an individual SFO is demonstrating a lack of charity and giving a negative impression upon the Order.

[/quote]

You are misunderstanding what I am writing and how I am saying it. There is a difference between looking at the Rules and Constitutions for finding out information about an organization and nitpicking every single rule to find out the loopholes and exact meanings. If you are the type of person that is looking for loopholes then honestly the Franciscan charism isn't meant for you. Nothing about the ideals of St. Francis supports the American cooperation view of having rules for every occasion and probability. If you are looking for that then if there is ANY charism that is like that you need to search for something else. Yes, knowledge of the Rules and Constitutions is a good thing. Nitpicking every aspect of it isn't.

Outside of the Council an individual SFO is demonstrating a lack of charity and giving a negative impression upon the Order.

At no point have I judged this person, but understanding that SFO is a calling and not a club is one of the integral parts of determining if SFO is really for someone. Our job is to give a true picture of what SFO is like, not to hold back the punches and act like the discernment process is no different then joining the Knights of Columbus or other social organization, where all you need is to know the rules and all will be wonderful.


#6

ou are misunderstanding what I am writing and how I am saying it. There is a difference between looking at the Rules and Constitutions for finding out information about an organization and nitpicking every single rule to find out the loopholes and exact meanings. If you are the type of person that is looking for loopholes then honestly the Franciscan charism isn't meant for you. Nothing about the ideals of St. Francis supports the American cooperation view of having rules for every occasion and probability. If you are looking for that then if there is ANY charism that is like that you need to search for something else. Yes, knowledge of the Rules and Constitutions is a good thing. Nitpicking every aspect of it isn't.

What you overlook entirely are the fundamental liberties outlined in De Fide. The bases of these are the foundation of the Franciscan order in general. "I" am not saying this, "Francis" is saying this.

What Francis claims is to live the Rule and scripture which together includes the deposit of the faith. If all this is true to this point, then FRANCIS would honour St. Paul's warning to test everything. Testing involves analysis,scrutiny and querying from various sources. (Radio Replies, Late Excellency F.J. Sheen). Even if, and I will say this again, even if I do not use this right in discovery which THE CHURCH ALLOWS AND IS PLEASED I DO, then I am STILL within this framework of pious investigation by right of Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata.

nitpick - to be excessively concerned with or critical of inconsequential details.

St. Paul does not share your opinion. What is consequential for one is not for another. Trust is not something I can extend after the new law, but hope is. If in my heart there is an uncertainty, then by ensuring I am certain can only benefit the Church. She would not want me to override this warning and plow head long into error.

The Fraternity has a lot going for it, more so than the majority of the Institutions on this planet. I am awed by it's accomplishments and the faith of it's members and I would like to join. Truth can be dissected from any perspective, the result will still equate to truth if it is. Still I am not alone, Picking Daisies itself outlines shortcomings that the Fraternity has a whole could find itself in. The book sees the Fraternity has a collective entity that is fallible. This alone justifies my query.

From a debating standpoint you presume my motive which is not charitable nor the Franciscan way. You reflexed a response without first an explanation from me.

looking at the Rules and Constitutions for finding out information about an organization and nitpicking every single rule to find out the loopholes and exact meanings.

non sequitor

My queries are legitimate. I am told that the Order is able to discern the Holy Spirit in it's potential members for the purpose of moving on to profession. The human psych is a complex science and even the top echelon pros are having a problem with this. That is fascinating to me that the Franciscans have this down pat.

I find it more than coincidental that in my experience the great majority of the members who are comfortable enough and confident to articulate themselves at the meetings are the professed. I would presume the Order attributes this to an accurate screening system, of a job well done so to speak. I think it's just psychological. The candidates have the added burden in that they are vying for acceptance and measure their words and conduct and this creates an added parasitic burden. They are novices from all walks of life, some novices in public speaking, some novices in all facets of social dialogue. Instead of being able to discover the real person, the fraternity is reading a person beside himself with anxiety. I know one lady who told me this, that she is so afraid of failure she can't express herself properly. I do know that you need to put pieces together in her dialogue to understand her, all the same she shows promise in her apostate. I don't know if any of this is getting across to the panel or negatively attributed to her.

College systems are familiar with this phenomena. Like it or not the fact is no one wants to fail after so long a period of movement forward and contributing, only to have a panel of unqualified people deciding one person is not material. The fraternity should recognize it's potential effects.Unknown to the panel they have assessed the person incorrectly. Here we end up with a hit and miss process that never becomes revealed.

I think contributions by candidates should be held and returned in the event of disqualification. It could enter into the main funds only after profession.

No, because we are dealing eventually with a "final grade" of sorts, I feel some academia can be incorporated and the Fraternity could allay some concerns of the members by establishing a milestone system. Not a grading system, but just on occasion give some word of progress perhaps monthly. This would be in conformity with Christ encouraging his Disciples on. After having received news he is on the right track, finally he can express himself properly and the fraternity receives baggage free information pertinent to it's goal.

M2C


#7

[quote="djames99, post:6, topic:270272"]

From a debating standpoint you presume my motive which is not charitable nor the Franciscan way. You reflexed a response without first an explanation from me.

[/quote]

You assume I have judged you at all. I haven't. You are only an anonymous person that I have only ever seen 5 posts from, posting in a online forum. I am only an anonymous person answering a post. I do not judge anyone. You received the answer to your post and are assuming I am judging you. Not a good start. Re-read what I have said and instead assume good faith in what I wrote.

I will only conclude with what has been told to me before. This is all about discernment, to have a true vocation you will know it is a vocation and you can feel it in your bones. Prayer, spirituality, and proper formation should be the number one priority. All will fit if it is right, if you do not feel it then it wasn't meant for you. Being nervous or feeling "I am not worthy" are normal.

Also you should not be joining an Order with a large list on how you will change the Order. From your posts on here you honestly sound a lot like me before I truly felt the calling. Thinking I know what is best for the Order, thinking I can preach to the Order/fraternity/priests on what is best. How they can be better. Many people trying to do these things forget that St. Francis stressed humble obedience. I realized that none of what I was doing came close to being humble. It was me trying to impose my will on others. Only after revelations like that did a true calling emerge.

Instead I found it best to sit back and listen to what God was calling me to do. Yes, research was necessary, but it needs to take a second place to your spiritual development. You cannot force a calling, it has to come to you. If the shoe isn't fitting, it might not be the right shoe or maybe after time the foot may change to fit the shoe or it may never happen.


#8

I forgot to address the "fear" factor that you seem to be talking about where new people may not feel comfortable talking at the meeting. This actually sounds like it is a problem with your fraternity where they aren't making the fraternity itself a welcoming place. There should be no fear about talking in a meeting. The same person that is shy outside of SFO will probably still be shy at a SFO meeting whether they are professed or not. Vocal people outside of SFO are usually pretty vocal within SFO whether they are professed or not.

A person at a normal gathering should not be afraid that things they say at the meeting will "be used against them in a court of law" or anything like that. In general, unless you are saying things that are in direct violation of Church teachings or are against the fundamental beliefs of Franciscan spirituality you shouldn't worry. Even things like that are understood from visitors. If you hold fast to beliefs that are contrary to Church teaching then that may be a problem, but just saying something at a meeting shouldn't be an issue.


#9

[quote="djames99, post:6, topic:270272"]

I am told that the Order is able to discern the Holy Spirit in it's potential members for the purpose of moving on to profession. The human psych is a complex science and even the top echelon pros are having a problem with this. That is fascinating to me that the Franciscans have this down pat.

[/quote]

We (here I speak for only regarding SFO and in my experience only) do NOT have it down pat. We (all) should be praying, discerning, listening and being open to the Spirit, but because we are humans, we fail. (I fail.)

Br OCarm has a post (I'll have to go see if I can find it again) on this very issue and in my opinion he is dead on. Plus he can write and compose better than I. :)

In my experience, when things don't work out and results in a SFO failed Candidacy, a departure of membership, and so forth, regardless the reason and irregardless where blame can or can not be assigned, the person leaving the Fraternity is still a human with very real needs and feeling. These people do not drop off the ends of the Earth and in smaller parish communities we will still be working on Church committees, seeing each other at Mass, and all the other stuff. Also we may be close friends or even in several cases I have seen, a Professed's spouse. With failed Candidacy, there is no appeal.

It takes a lot of listening and time before wounds can heal. This can be a test/proof of/if some one, recognized by the Church or not, follows that lowly man, our Father Francis.

I am not an authority, my knowledge is little, but I will always try to be your friend, even if I should never know you. Just know I make mistakes.


#10

This is the link to the thread that I think may be beneficial here:
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=613821

Please pay particular notice to this post from the above thread:
forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=8546356&postcount=6


#11

[quote="Kevin812, post:10, topic:270272"]

Please pay particular notice to this post from the above thread:
forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=8546356&postcount=6

[/quote]

I think that is an excellent post. Pay close attention to the section that talks about:

if someone basically argues that their formator or community was against them from the start, or never gave them a chance, then they really weren't called to community life, because such decisions are never the product of one person alone, but are made with multiple inputs from many skilled people. But refusing to accept that judgements were made in good faith rather than from personal antipathy protects the individual from having to examine themselves too closely, or acknowledging that their departure is the will of a group who have no vested interest in misrepresenting their assessment of the person departing.

I have seen many people think they have callings to such and such group/order/priesthood and get turned down. Honestly you could really tell the ones that truly had a calling because they kept trying. They didn't let little road-blocks get in their way. First off, just as a disclaimer, I have never been in a position where I had to officially have a word in someones actual calling. Usually the ones that IMHO were forcing a calling usually hit one roadblock, blamed it on others then stopped. The ones that IMHO seemed to be truly called kept trying when roadblocks appeared. One person I know was denied admission to the diocesan priesthood in two different dioceses. He later applied to become a religious brother and was admitted. Looking back he sees God's hand in it all. The shoe that he actually put on was the perfect fit.


#12

I would recommend you re-read what I said in regards to what the Church allows to me and you. You skirt around addressing some solid points based on fact I make.

I think you are expressing your own point that really calls for your own thread, since you don't wish for constructive dialogue. That "judging" fixation you talk about is fantasy, besides, and here again even if I were, you would probably mistaken fraternal correction to judging. But that calls for a study of scripture to your dismay.

I think out of conflict of interest you should bow out of the selection counsel until you learn more of scripture and learn that Francis also allows Church liberties. You do a disservice if you continue to disregard what Francis would accept and what is compatible to what the Church accepts. I shudder to think of the people you failed because of your inadequacy.


#13

I will only respond with two admonitions from St. Francis.

  1. That no one should glory save in the Cross of the Lord.

Consider, O man, how great the excellence in which the Lord has placed you because He has created and formed you to the image of His beloved Son according to the body and to His own likeness according to the spirit. And all the creatures that are under heaven serve and know and obey their Creator in their own way better than you. And even the demons did not crucify Him, but you together with them crucified Him and still crucify Him by taking delight in vices and sins. Wherefore then can you glory For if you were so clever and wise that you possessed all science, and if you knew how to interpret every form of language and to investigate heavenly things minutely, you could not glory in all this, because one demon has known more of heavenly things and still knows more of earthly things than all men, although there may be some man who has received from the Lord a special knowledge of sovereign wisdom. In like manner, if you were handsomer and richer than all others, and even if you could work wonders and put the demons to flight, all these things are hurtful to you and in nowise belong to you, and in them you cannot glory; that, however, in which we may glory is in our infirmities, and in bearing daily the holy cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  1. Of True Correction.

Blessed is the servant who bears discipline, accusation, and blame from others as patiently as if they came from himself. Blessed is the servant who, when reproved, mildly submits, modestly obeys, humbly confesses, and willingly satisfies. Blessed is the servant who is not prompt to excuse himself and who humbly bears shame and reproof for sin when he is without fault.

And in a modern version of St. Francis' humility and begging for insults from his brothers, "Please sir can I have another."


#14

No formal procedure is required. There is not right to be in an Order. The fraternity/Order may determine that the vocation is not real. If a fraternity feels a calling is not true you can always approach another fraternity.

The impact is much more serious than you think. It is a commentary on his Catholocity, in fact, it is a registered document that to all intents and purposes states that he is inadequate in his faith. The Franciscan spirit is also the call to the baptized in general. The rule is followed by the Faithful in general, it is only given form and substance by the Pope's promulgation. Even community is defined the same. That is the difference. I can take every rule that defines mandate one by one and prove it is mirrored in the Church mandate proper. Vise-versa is that a lay person can live a Franciscan life and still in Francis's eyes be Franciscan. This is why the vocations of the Church are intrinsically his by right. Those who's duty it is to select have a very serious duty has the implications are very dire indeed.

   (Which i suggested would be addressed by a milestone system. It would be charity to show at milestone the reason he did not meet requirements to date, as well has the professed member who made it. If not at milestone,absolutely at dismissal. If there is nothing amiss, then there is nothing to fear. And no, we are only to trust God, but we are to be hopeful.)

Remember the stigmata represents Francis has an embodiment of Christ, who came to redeem mankind and his faithful, even before the Order was conceptualized (and foreknown of course).

A spiritual director is someone you find on your own. They are supposed to have undergone complex training to become a spiritual director. There is no requirement that you go to or have any particular person as your spiritual director. Your spiritual director can be your parish priest, your parish deacon, a Franciscan Conventual brother/priest, a Poor Clare nun or a friend that has undergone the training. It is up to you. If you picked someone that sits on the Fraternity council or someone like that, the training is supposed to tell them how to deal with conflicts.

Church references the definition of SD is interchangeable with SA. Verify this for yourself.
Catholics have come to know the title, they would not suspect that an SD/SA in the fraternity could not be counted on to confidentiality no less than a confessor could be counted to be under the seal. No Catholic would first ask a priest before confession if he will abide by a seal. The Catholic isn't looking in a secular phone book for a physician, he's looking for a staunch virtuous member under a specific title whom by title holds an honorable and holy profession. If the Order cannot provide, the oness is on the Order to extend the benefit of the doubt to the candidate. (didn't read my link again I see. :rolleyes:)

Discernment is a long process. You could find you go through the entire process and come up to the day of your permanent profession and find out that you aren't really called.

You.....Good, then the analysis is firmly mine to make.

No guarantees on anything. Most formation teams are pretty experienced and have seen many people of different types. There are guidelines, checklists, and things like that. Sometimes it can be gut feels and things like that. The decision isn't just one person, it is the formation team, the council, and possibly the sponsor that is picked by the candidate upon entering candidacy.

....and no shame as to indicating in writing why he did not make it and who made the decision. Writing was required by the parish priest to enter, writing should be the exit norm as well. That is, if they are true Franciscans themselves.

The formation team needs to be skilled at discerning the Holy Spirit in others and this is their promised skill. Hate to muddy the waters which you conveniently avoid, if the counsel ALSO requires on going formation and CAVEATS has instructed (ref: Picking Daisies), how does the implication of this assure the candidates of accurate assessment if they are also prone to the same errors has the candidates. One would think they would be above this threat by now.

Logically, wouldn't you prefer a driving instructor who is not himself a student at the same skill level? If you couldn't do anything about it, the least you would like to go home with after all the expense and effort is documents.

#15

[quote="Marauder, post:2, topic:270272"]
If you are nitpicking rules then this vocation may not be for you.

[/quote]

Indeed, you'd make a much better Dominican! :p


#16

In having a very unique experience of so far going through formation with three different Fraternities due to a series of moves I can honestly say that I have had one person make me feel like this. However, that being said I had other people in that same Fraternity quickly recognize that and support me. Yes the Holy Spirit works in community. The charism is about community. If we cannot trust community well enough to have perfect joy in obedience than we simply may or may not possess the charism. I do not know the OP. It is not my decision. It is one that belongs to the Fraternity. God knows, the Holy Spirit knows. The Seraphic Father knows. My only suggestion would be to try another Fraternity or another charism. God bless - and thank you I needed to read me typing these words.


#17

Thank you for being open minded and honest. They say the first step in fixing problems is to recognize there is one.

Franciscan Admonition 25 states:

    **Blessed (is) the servant, who would so love and fear his own brother, when he is far from him, as when for example he is with him, and would not say anything behind him, which he cannot, with charity, say before him.**

You can see what I have been saying all along. If the counsel at this moment in time is dealing with the decision of accepting or rejecting a candidate, then they would be counter-Franciscan in bringing up any prior negative issue that was not addressed to the candidate at that time, neither cumulative, neither individually. In other words nothing negative can be said about him from the past unless it had already been addressed before, and that would be in poor taste at the very least.

In the book Picking Daisies it states dismissal is for the common good of the Fraternity. Aquinas says that the common good must find it's source for justification in the good Laws of God. If the counsel ignores Francis while it claims to be obedient to him and his laws, then it effects an evil, not good.

Here again is a pressing argument to initiate the milestone system I mentioned earlier.

James


#18

[quote="djames99, post:17, topic:270272"]
Thank you for being open minded and honest. They say the first step in fixing problems is to recognize there is one.

Franciscan Admonition 25 states:

    **Blessed (is) the servant, who would so love and fear his own brother, when he is far from him, as when for example he is with him, and would not say anything behind him, which he cannot, with charity, say before him.**

You can see what I have been saying all along. If the counsel at this moment in time is dealing with the decision of accepting or rejecting a candidate, then they would be counter-Franciscan in bringing up any prior negative issue that was not addressed to the candidate at that time, neither cumulative, neither individually. In other words nothing negative can be said about him from the past unless it had already been addressed before, and that would be in poor taste at the very least.

In the book Picking Daisies it states dismissal is for the common good of the Fraternity. Aquinas says that the common good must find it's source for justification in the good Laws of God. If the counsel ignores Francis while it claims to be obedient to him and his laws, then it effects an evil, not good.

Here again is a pressing argument to initiate the milestone system I mentioned earlier.

James

[/quote]

Except, are you really in a court of law?

Or are you trying to discern whether or not you have a vocation to the SFO?

{They're 2 different things, you know.}


#19

[quote="djames99, post:17, topic:270272"]
Thank you for being open minded and honest. They say the first step in fixing problems is to recognize there is one.

Franciscan Admonition 25 states:

    **Blessed (is) the servant, who would so love and fear his own brother, when he is far from him, as when for example he is with him, and would not say anything behind him, which he cannot, with charity, say before him.**

You can see what I have been saying all along. If the counsel at this moment in time is dealing with the decision of accepting or rejecting a candidate, then they would be counter-Franciscan in bringing up any prior negative issue that was not addressed to the candidate at that time, neither cumulative, neither individually. In other words nothing negative can be said about him from the past unless it had already been addressed before, and that would be in poor taste at the very least.

In the book Picking Daisies it states dismissal is for the common good of the Fraternity. Aquinas says that the common good must find it's source for justification in the good Laws of God. If the counsel ignores Francis while it claims to be obedient to him and his laws, then it effects an evil, not good.

Here again is a pressing argument to initiate the milestone system I mentioned earlier.

James

[/quote]

Except one that is not fully professed is not yet fully a Brother.


#20

[quote="joanofarc2008, post:19, topic:270272"]
Except one that is not fully professed is not yet fully a Brother.

[/quote]

There is no distinction of title, only state.

Constitution

37,3 Initiation: "The brothers and sisters are responsible for their own formation"

58,2 Pre-profession: "The brother or sister who has publicly rejected the faith......."

The difference is the degree of maturity only.


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