She shall crush his head or He shall crush his head?


#1

The Douay Rheims Bible is in error when it comes to translating “SHE shall crush his head”, because the pronoun is MASCULINE and not feminine in Hebrew. Jerome made an error in this translation. All other translations after Jerome’s translation, have the phrase properly rendered “HE shall crush his head.” Referring of course to Christ.

                         Theologically, this correct as well. for through the death of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, our Lord redeemed us from Adam's fall and original sin. Mary never was or is powerful enough to overcome Satan in his power.

#2

That’s what they put notes in Bibles for isn’t it?
This is from the DRV- Challoner:

"15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.
Pax tecum,


#3

I’ve read that the best translation of the Hebrew is actually “they shall crush” as can be seen in this online Torah:

ishwar.com/judaism/holy_torah/book01/book01_003.html

“She shall crush” actually is closer to this translation because it implies that she achieves victory through her seed–thus they achieve victory.


#4

I already quoted that Church Militant. But that DR is in error, because the pronoun in the Hebrew is Masculine and not feminine.It should correctly be translated, “HE shall crush his head.” Only Christ crushed the head of Satan and not Mary.


#5

Here is a good thread on this topic:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=59248&highlight=snake


#6

Thanks Gen3:15 for digging up our old thread on that!

piety, you are not quite correct when you say Mary never was or is powerful enough to overcome Satan in his power, because:

ROMANS 16:17-20
17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. 18 For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I want you to be wise as to what is good, and simple as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will quickly crush Satan under your feet.

Neither Mary or any of us are able to crush satan by ourselves, without Christ. But we must be able to do so IN CHRIST, as St. Paul points out above. Since Mary is the preeminent disciple, the most humble and the most obedient of all Christ’s disciples, she certainly is able to crush Satan under her heel. Hence the image of her doing so.

What do you think?


#7

The proper translation is “she”, not “he”. Why do I say this? Several reasons. One of which is because at Guadalupe, the Blessed Virgin May said "I am she who crushes the head of the serpant"

[64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:G9JQmQZ9GI0J:olrl.org/prophecy/ladyofg.shtml+guadalupe+I+am+she+who+crushes+serpent&hl=en](“http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:G9JQmQZ9GI0J<img src=”)


#8

I did a Hebrew word search on my PC bible software. I was WRONG. The pronoun can be translated he, she or it. So any of the pronouns can be used with justification. I apologize for my error.


#9

[quote=RSiscoe]The proper translation is “she”, not “he”. Why do I say this? Several reasons. One of which is because at Guadalupe, the Blessed Virgin May said “I am she who crushes the head of the serpant”

[64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:G9JQmQZ9GI0J:olrl.org/prophecy/ladyofg.shtml+guadalupe+I+am+she+who+crushes+serpent&hl=en](“http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:G9JQmQZ9GI0J<img src=”)
[/quote]

And in the image she is standing on the Aztec serpent moon-god. Also, the Miraculous Medal which she had struck has her standing on the snake.


#10

[quote=piety101]The pronoun can be translated he, she or it. So any of the pronouns can be used with justification.
[/quote]

Wow, I never knew that. Pretty cool.:thumbsup:


#11

[quote=piety101]Theologically, this correct as well. for through the death of Christ on the cross and his resurrection, our Lord redeemed us from Adam’s fall and original sin. Mary never was or is powerful enough to overcome Satan in his power.
[/quote]

With Christ’s help she certainly is. With Christ’s help a Catholic priest can overcome Satan in his power (exorcism).


#12

[quote=piety101]I did a Hebrew word search on my PC bible software. I was WRONG. The pronoun can be translated he, she or it. So any of the pronouns can be used with justification. I apologize for my error.
[/quote]

[size=6]OMG![/size] I was Right!


#13

[quote=Genesis315]And in the image she is standing on the Aztec serpent moon-god. Also, the Miraculous Medal which she had struck has her standing on the snake.
[/quote]

Yes, there are other things that confirm this as well. The story of “Judith”, for example, from the Old Testament confirms that indeed it is Mary that crushes the head of Satan.

Judith is a “type” of Mary. In the story of Judith “holofernes” is a “type” of the antichrist (and by extension the devil). It is Judith who cuts of the head of holofernes (13:10).

After she does this the Israelites say to her "Blessed art thou O daughter, by the Lord most high, above all women upon earth. Blessed be the Lord who made heaven and earth, who hath directed thee to cutting off the head of the prince of our enemies. Because he hath so magnified thy name this day, that thy praise shall not depart from the mouth of men… for thou hast… prevented our ruin in the presence of our God" (Judith 13:23-25).

You probably noticed the similarities between what the Israelites said about Judith and what Elizabeth said about our Blessed Mother (Luke 1).

Then Judith responded by saying: “The God of Israel… hath cutt off the head… this night by my hand” (13:27).

That final verse actually describes it: It is Judith that carries out the “cutting off of the head”, but it is God who gives her the power to do so. So actually the hebrew word that is used is correct. For it is a neutral word which can refer to either “he” or “she”. The serpents head is crushed by “she” through the power of “he”: so they both play a part.

But why? The answer makes perfect sense. What was the sin of Lucifer? It was pride. If God crushed the head of the devil by himself, it would not crush his pride nearly as much as if a humble women crushed his head. Therefore, God used the instrumnent of this mere woman to “crush the head of the serpent” thus humiliating him to a greater degree.


#14

[quote=piety101]I did a Hebrew word search on my PC bible software. I was WRONG. The pronoun can be translated he, she or it. So any of the pronouns can be used with justification. I apologize for my error.
[/quote]

Piety,

I appreciate and applaud your humility. I was actually about to agree with your first point–that the pronoun in Hebrew is definitely masculine. But all I studied was modern Hebrew, and the ancient language is much wilder and woolier than the modern.

In modern Hebrew, the pronoun “he” is spelled “heh-vav-aleph,” pronounced “hu.” The pronoun “she” is spelled “heh-yod-aleph,” pronounced “he.” “They” is given in modern Hebrew as “hem” and “hen” for men and women, respectively. So when the Hebrew text says “hu ye-shuf-kha” I naturally take it to mean strictly a masculine “he will crush.”

Latin, which St. Jerome used for the Vulgate, does not differentiate between “he,” “she,” or “it” in the personal pronouns. Thus when he came upon the Hebrew “he will crush” he translated it into Latin as “he/she/it will crush.” This was not any error on his part, but was rather a limitation of the language itself.

The real kicker (for me, at least) in this verse is that in the line “you will crush his heel,” the 'his" in the Hebrew is the first person plural ending–more like “our heel.” At least that is how that pronoun form is used in modern Hebrew. I’d love to hear what your PC bible software says about it.

  • Liberian

#15

Michael

         Now, now Michael calm down. I said the Hebrew pronoun can be translated THREE different ways. Not just one way. It could be translated he or she.

#16

Hello All,

I wish I could talk to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi about this. The difference between he and she are rather drastic. Either Genesis is fortelling the coming of Christ or his Mother. Really, it seems more logical that it says HE because it is a direct prefiguring of Jesus the Messiah. This issue needs to be resolved by the Church to avoid confusion.


#17

[quote=piety101]Michael

         Now, now Michael calm down. I said the Hebrew pronoun can be translated THREE different ways. Not just one way. It could be translated he or she.

[/quote]

LOL!


#18

[quote=RikasAngel]…Either Genesis is fortelling the coming of Christ or his Mother…
[/quote]

How 'bout both?

DustinsDad


#19

[quote=piety101]I did a Hebrew word search on my PC bible software. I was WRONG. The pronoun can be translated he, she or it. So any of the pronouns can be used with justification. I apologize for my error.
[/quote]

The key to translating the pronoun is the word “seed” or zera, which is singular and masculine. The seed crushes the head. The seed is singular masculine, THUS it can only be translated as “he”. Any other translation is false and is interjecting the translators interpretation, the wrong way to translate.

That the vision of Guadalupe or the Miraculous Medal repeat this error just serves as strong evidence not to believe in those things.

David


#20

[quote=DavidB]The key to translating the pronoun is the word “seed” or zera, which is singular and masculine. The seed crushes the head. The seed is singular masculine, THUS it can only be translated as “he”. Any other translation is false and is interjecting the translators interpretation, the wrong way to translate.
David
[/quote]

If “seed” or “zera” is the key, then the translators should not have referred to the serpant in the second person singular in the last phrase. Or, perhaps you will argue that God made a grammatical eror?

Fiat


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