Shelter tries to help abused child brides

In disturbing video images, a 14-year-old girl is purportedly being flogged. She is alleged to have run away from a forced marriage in a remote village.
Just as disturbing to Dr. Sima Samar, chair of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission? "The other sad part I have to say was the reaction of the people," she says. "The lack of sensitivity of the people."
The video was given to Samar's Human Rights Commission. She says police promised her they'd prosecute the man, but so far nothing despite the country's laws that ban not just forced marriages but matrimoney for girls under 16.
Many men, Samar says, including some government officials just don't get it.
"They still think that women is the property of the men and they should be treated how they want," she explains.

afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/10/shelter-tries-to-help-abused-child-brides/?hpt=C2

Not much different than cattle. In these countries that degrade women I see it as a reflection of the men and their sad, weak lost souls. It's not about marriage, at 13 or 14.

Lots of prayer.

Not much more that can be said.

I'm not sure why this is posted in war on terror forum as opposed to the secular news forum.

I can only guess it is to once more highlight the alleged wickedness of Islam and Muslims.

This post just seems to be saying - look at those wicked evil muslims.

This is how they all are.

Which is neither accurate, charitable, or true.

Let's not forget SOME Christians are not averse to whipping their children to ''train'' them in the way of God.

Whipping them up to and including death.

chicoer.com/news/ci_14388171

fundamentalist religious philosophy that espouses corporal punishment to "train" children to be more obedient to their parents and God is now being investigated in connection with the death of a young Paradise girl and serious injuries to her sister.

Prosecutors allege the two victims were subjected to "hours" of corporal punishment by their parents on successive days last Thursday and Friday with a quarter-inch-wide length of rubber or plastic tubing, which police reportedly recovered from the parents' bedroom.

Police allege that the younger girl was being disciplined for mis-pronouncing a word during a home-school reading lesson the day before she died.

The two young girls reportedly sustained deep bruising and multiple "whip-like" marks on their back, buttocks and legs, which authorities believe resulted in significant muscle tissue breakdown that impaired their kidneys and possibly other vital organs, said Ramsey.

freestudents.blogspot.com/2010/02/who-will-protect-kids-from-them.html

Rev. Pearl says:

The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of ¼ inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument.

The one restraint Pastor Pearl advises:

Don’t be so indiscreet as to spank your children in public—including the church restroom. I get letters regularly telling of trouble with in-laws who threaten to report them to the authorities. Parents have called the Gestapo on their married children. Church friends who have noses longer than the pews on which they perch can cause a world of trouble.

Note how he advises not to beat the child in public. And calls law enforcement and child protection services the gestapo.

And the prefered instrument - a length of quater inch piping!

nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=84&cHash=8440f96b4a&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=89&tx_ttnews[backPid]=12

When your child is in the first throes of this debilitating condition, be kind enough to punish him. Care enough and love enough to pay the emotional sacrifice to give him ten to fifteen licks that will satisfy his need to experience payback.

Our goal is to cause the child to voluntarily surrender his will. We want to impress upon him the severity of his disobedience. It takes time and thoughtfulness for the child to come to repentance. I have told a child I was going to give him 10 licks. I count out loud as I go. After about three licks, leaving him in his position, I would stop and remind him what this is all about. I would continue slowly, still counting, stop again and tell him that I know it hurts and I wish I didn’t have to do it but that it is for his own good. Then I would continue slowly. Pretending to forget the count, I would again stop at about eight and ask him the number. Have him subtract eight from ten, (a little homeschooling) and continue with the final two licks. Then I would have him stand in front of me and ask him why he got the spanking. If his answer showed that he was rebellious and defiant, he would get several more licks. Again he would be questioned as to his offense. If he showed total submission, we put it all behind us, but if he were still rebellious, we would continue until he gave over his will. Only about three of our five children ever resisted after a spanking and refused to cooperate. Each of the three required only one experience of continued spankings until they surrendered. None of the three ever tried it a second time. In all cases, it was between the ages of two and four that they tried their moment of defiance.

If you ever have a child who stands his ground of defiance and you let him win, you have lost his heart forever—unless you are able to go back and win a confrontation and keep on winning. If you ever let his rebellion triumph just one time, it makes it much harder to conquer in the future. After he gains the upper hand, one victory on your part will not be sufficient. You will have to persevere in several contests of wills until he is convinced that he can never stand against your authority.

Note in the quote above the element of mental torture as well as the beating!

Each child will be different. Some four-year-olds will need five spankings a day, whereas others will need only one a month.

As to the age of the girl - while I dont think anyone would dispute she is a child, you can get married in texas at 14 also, with parental consent.

law.jrank.org/pages/11840/Marriage-Age-Requirements.html

If it's wrong in Afghanistan, it's just as wrong in Texas, with or without parental consent.

While few christians would agree with the fundamentalist christians beating their children (in some cases to death - the case I cited is not the only one) in an effort to ''train'' them for God, I'm equally sure few muslims would agree with the forcable marriage and beating of a 14 year old girl.

There are extremists in every religion and every culture.

It is dishonest, disingenuous and deceitful to protray such incidents as if there were the norm.

It was a CNN report about a country that is in the front line of the War on Terror. Good hearted Muslim women of Afghanistan likely fully appreciated CNN bringing attention to what is happening.

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:4, topic:201627"]
As to the age of the girl - while I dont think anyone would dispute she is a child, you can get married in texas at 14 also, with parental consent.

law.jrank.org/pages/11840/Marriage-Age-Requirements.html

If it's wrong in Afghanistan, it's just as wrong in Texas, with or without parental consent.

[/quote]

The forcible element is repulsive, and rightly, being forced to marry against your free will is a just reason to invalidate the marriage.

But part of the ''shock'' element of the video was the age of the girl.

As I said above you can get married at the same age in Texas.

But I was quite surprised to find that in Canon Law a girl can get married at 14, even agaist her parents wishes.

The minimum age for marriage is 16 for a man and 14 for a woman (c. 1083 §1). The conference of bishops can establish a higher age for licit marriage, although this has not been done in the United States (c. 1083 §2). However, a minor may marry only with the permission of the local ordinary when the parents are unaware or reasonably opposed (c. 1071 §1 6º). Pastors are urged to discourage minors from seeking marriage (c. 1072).

jgray.org/docs/IL_marriage.html

And in Judaism at 12.

The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times. The Talmud recommends that a man marry at age 18, or somewhere between 16 and 24.

jewfaq.org/marriage.htm

The kiddushin is the betrothal and :

Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as the term is understood in modern customs of the West. Once the kiddushin is completed, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at that time, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete.

mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/marriage.htm

So in Judaism this betrothal can take place even earlier than 12 years of age for the girl.

I guess these Muslim Afghani women ought to refocus their attention to the poor Jewish girls of Israel then. That is where the real problem of abused child brides is happening.

Compared to the Jewish girls of Texas, really these Afghani women ought to doubly thank their lucky stars that they are not having to deal with that kind of dire situation.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:7, topic:201627"]
I guess these Muslim Afghani women ought to refocus their attention to the poor Jewish girls of Israel then. That is where the real problem of abused child brides is happening.

[/quote]

No it's not.

Sadly you seem to think so.

Do you have any documented proof that Jewish girls in Texas are being abused.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:7, topic:201627"]
Compared to the Jewish girls of Texas, really these Afghani women ought to doubly thank their lucky stars that they are not having to deal with that kind of dire situation.

[/quote]

Banal comment designed to be argumentative and sarcastic.

Dismissed.

So Jews and Texas are not so bad now then?

Why bring it up in the first place, if it is not relevant?

Its called a "tu quoque" argument, and a deflection.

Bon fait!

[quote="Darryl1958, post:9, topic:201627"]
So Jews and Texas are not so bad now then?

[/quote]

You said they were.

You said they were the real victims of child bride abuse.

You need to show documented evidence to back up your claim.

I said in response to the fact the girl was only 14 in the video, that it is perfectly legal to be wed at 14 in texas for a female.

[quote="Darryl1958, post:9, topic:201627"]
Why bring it up in the first place, if it is not relevant?

[/quote]

I never mentioned abused jewish girls in texas.

You did.

I said **I was surprised **to find that it is legal under the relevant religious laws for a 14year old catholic girl to marry - she can do so with the agreement of a Bishop even against her parents wishs, and a 12 year old jewish girl to marry and that she can be betrothed even younger than that, under the religious law, and I linked to the relevant documentation I found.

I was surprised because I would have thought it would have been older than that.

That's what I said.

However, your comments have already been dismissed as banal, arguementative and sarcastic.

No need to dismiss them again.

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:11, topic:201627"]
You said they were.

You said they were the real victims of child bride abuse.

You need to show documented evidence to back up your claim.

I said in response to the fact the girl was only 14 in the video, that it is perfectly legal to be wed at 14 in texas for a female.

I never mentioned abused jewish girls in texas.

You did.

I said **I was surprised **to find that it is legal under the relevant religious laws for a 14year old catholic girl to marry - she can do so with the agreement of a Bishop even against her parents wishs, and a 12 year old jewish girl to marry and that she can be betrothed even younger than that, under the religious law, and I linked to the relevant documentation I found.

I was surprised because I would have thought it would have been older than that.

That's what I said.

However, your comments have already been dismissed as banal, arguementative and sarcastic.

No need to dismiss them again.

[/quote]

Thank you ever so much for setting me straight on the issue then and disabusing me of the notion that this thread somehow has anythign to do with Jews and Judaism, or Texans even. I am eternally grateful that it has been made clear that the crux of the problem is in —as the OP article and the former Afghani minister states it is— Afghanistan.
One wonders how such vile rumors get started in the first place. One also wonderswhat other vile disinformation being spread about Jews.

Again kind sir, you are both a gentleman and a scholar for setting myself and the record straight. This indeed has nothing to do with either Judiaism or Texans. This has to do with girls being abused in Afghanistan.

No one is more familiar with the effects of Islamic law on women than Aayan Hirsi Ali, having grown up in such a culture herself. She has established the AHA Foundation "to help protect and defend the rights of women in the West against militant Islam."

Her autobiographical book "Infidel" is also worth reading in regard to this issue.

[quote="Guyonthestreet, post:4, topic:201627"]
I'm not sure why this is posted in war on terror forum as opposed to the secular news forum.

I can only guess it is to once more highlight the alleged wickedness of Islam and Muslims.

This post just seems to be saying - look at those wicked evil muslims.

This is how they all are.

Which is neither accurate, charitable, or true.

.

[/quote]

The post "just seems to be saying" blah blah blah "Which is neither accurate, charitable, or true."

You know >IF< the post had actually said that you'd be right in saying these things, but since it didn't what you wrote is pretty much "neither accurate, charitable, or true." in itself.

It's not exactly uncommon on the net for things to be posted in the wrong section of a forum... that doesn't necessarily mean you are uncovering evil by saying these things, but that you're jumping to your own conclusions. Why didn't you ask what they meant before announcing what you thought they meant?

Also do you think it's better to not discuss these things?
To NOT mention them for fear of insulting Muslims?

I'm going to guess the OP posted this in this particular forum because the rights of the children and women in Afghanistan is one of the outcomes we hope to achieve in our war on terror in that country.

But the way this thread has turned, is very concerning.

[quote="PatriceA, post:15, topic:201627"]
I'm going to guess the OP posted this in this particular forum because the rights of the children and women in Afghanistan is one of the outcomes we hope to achieve in our war on terror in that country.

But the way this thread has turned, is very concerning.

[/quote]

I can't speak for the motives of the OP, but for any country sending soldiers to Afghanistan, this article brings to mind again the idea of what are they dying for.
If the objective is to pound the Taliban into the ground as any kind of governing force, that was achieved easily and could be achieved again st just as easily any time that they would want to attempt to become the overt government of the country.
Otherwise, I just don't personally think it is worth it to send our men and women into harms way in order that these kind of primitive desires become accommodated in order to get the warlords on board.

[quote="JimG, post:13, topic:201627"]
No one is more familiar with the effects of Islamic law on women than Aayan Hirsi Ali, having grown up in such a culture herself. She has established the AHA Foundation "to help protect and defend the rights of women in the West against militant Islam."

Her autobiographical book "Infidel" is also worth reading in regard to this issue.

[/quote]

Here is a quote from Hirsi that is particularly insightful as to how we may understand the disturbing video that started this thread.

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126909914

There is a basic difference between the tribal society that Hirsi is familiar with and the liberal society. In the Somalia of her youth, the violence was seen as a good in and of itself, a way to control behavior and enforce the social norms against the will of the individual. In a liberal society, the norm must be rational discussion, with violence only being used a last resort to curtail violence. In the latter, individual free expression is encouraged while in the former violence is used to curtail free expression of the individual itself.

When it comes to our people dying in Afghanistan, this difference is of fundamental importance. The multicultural model assumes prima facia that the tribal model and the liberal one are equally valid, that to think otherwise would be to be engaging in a reactionary imperialism.

If the goal of the war is to destroy the Taliban and El Quada as the government of Afghanistan, that war is won. The structures of Taliban government can be easily destroyed again at any time.

But, if the goal now is to employ troops to guide Afghanistan into some semblance of a modern functioning state adhering to the general principles that any modern society would have to subscribe to, then the OP precisely defines the forces that we need to be fighting against.
If ultimately, the kind of society we as a people are dying for is one in which violence will continue to be used to subjugate women and individual rights to the tyranny of tribal Islamism, this is a travesty against the lives of our young soldiers who are dying so that Afghans might enjoy the same freedoms we do.

What exactly are we fighting for then? What are we fighting against? These questions demand clarity.
We either believe in liberal values, or multicultural ones, but not both. Only to the extent that multiculturalism falls within the guiding principles of liberalism may we as members of liberal society promote and encourage the diversity of cultural expressions. Multiculturalism is the colors of a modern society. Its structure however must be a liberal one. Anything less than construction of a society with liberal underpinnings is just not worth spilling another drop of blood over.

For sure Hirsi Ali is more of a progressive in much of her politics than is my ilk. However, it is this fundamental belief of hers in *liberalism *that has now wedded her to those of us on the right, and has led her colleagues on the European left to leave her as a veritable pariah to them.

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