Shootings demonstrate need for gun control, USCCB says


#303

I mentioned it because it was gun-free. It was chosen as a gay bar, though, not because it was gun-free. What I am saying is the idea that shootings happen at gun free zones is not statistically significant. Furthermore, any causal relationships is dubious.


#304

Are you a mind reader, or speculating?

The correlation is strong that these people choose gun free zones.


#305

Military bases are generally considered to be gun free in that even the military personally are, (with few exceptions such as MPs), prohibited from carrying their sidearms.


#306

If the USAF had done its job this would not have happened.


#307

That’s like saying people choose to die in hospitals. The correlation may be strong, but the cause and effect most likely goes the other way around. People who are sick and likely to die go to hospitals to try to get well. And sites that are good targets for mass shootings in their own right are then designated as gun free zones as the effect, not the cause. There is no evidence of shooters taking into account the fact an area is a gun free zone in order to specially target it.


#308

Neither.

There sure seems stronger correlation between the importance of the target to the person than the “softness”, or whether it is gun-free, military property, or neither.

The only correlation I see is between people that think “gun-free zones” are picked targets, and those that want to carry a gun. I see confirmation bias.


#309

No it’s not. People are dying and chose to try live by visiting hospitals. It has no comparison with selecting a location for a mass shooting.

But you are right that good targets are designated gun free, in the misguided belief it will help. But that decision ignores the fact that the shooter ignores the designation. These mass shooting aren’t reactive, impromptu actions caused by someone who just happened to be armed.


#310

Yes, being ‘gun free’ is not the prime factor but it does appear to be a factor. It’s natural for someone select the softest target that meets their other criteria. Even if schools were not gun free zones I expect there would be shootings there, but the argument is that a quicker response would limit casualties, or the shooter might pick another location (not a net win, but good for the kiddies).


#311

My problem with the statement is that it suggests ‘reasonable policies to help curb gun violence’ have not already been implemented. It also suggests, wrongly, that assault weapons aren’t already currently heavily restricted and banned. The worst might be

Some weapons are increasingly capable of easily causing mass murder when used with an evil purpose

The weapons are unchanged. They are not increasingly capable of anything. This suggests a serious lack of understanding of the issue.


#312

The argument that gun-free zones are ineffective at preventing mass shootings is a totally separate argument from the one that says gun-free zones encourage mass shootings. I can agree with the first one, but not the second one.


#313

But this goes to your earlier statement that nothing has been done on this issue, suggesting that it’s because people have failed the moral obligation to try to resolve this problem, when in fact the differences of opinion about what is or is not a good idea are so entrenched that progress is extremely difficult.


#314

A gun free zone has nothing to do with being a good or bad target of a mass shooting. Bars are gun free because alcohol impairment makes having a fire arm more dangerous. Schools are gun free because teenagers do not need guns, and school administrators need to have control of security. Business are gun-free because owners have the right to make that determination based on their private property rights.

The reason guns are kept out of these locations is because of danger of accidental killing or crimes of opportunity or passion, not any sort of pre-meditated shooting.

The issue the USCCB is addressing in regards to these shootings is gun control, not whether some areas need to be exempted from the legal carrying of firearms.


#315

I would have thought the issue was reducing the number of mass shootings. Your statement makes it appear that the USCCB is using the shootings not to press for methods to reduce them but simply as a means to the end of reducing gun ownership. The question of the effectiveness of gun free zones is quite valid if the concern is with controlling gun violence rather than controlling gun ownership.


#316

People being murdered one at a time is a life issue. People being murdered in groups like sheep is a life issue. The two are related, but that which reduces one may have zero impact on another.


#317

You are conflating the problem - people being murdered - with the choices involved in resolving it. The problem may be caused by people making immoral choices, but the choices facing those trying to resolve the problem are not moral, they are entirely prudential.


#318

The statement cited does not mention reducing gun ownership as a primary goal. There is mention of “gun control” which can mean many things besides gun ownership. For example, it could include regulations about gun safes in homes, or restrictions on certain types of guns. It is a straw man argument to say that pnewton is saying the bishops were just advocating as a primary goal the reduction in ownership of guns.


#319

What? Sheep are being murdered in groups! That’s outrageous. Everyone knows only lambs can be murdered in groups.


#320

It’s crazy that you think risk of opposition doesn’t affect target selection. The fiew times people have targeted the police, like in Dallas, they did so from a distance to reduce their risk.

Yes, there is some reason behind why people establish gun free zones, but it is faulty. Take schools, pro-gun people don’t want to make them ‘open carry’ locations where anybody is allowed to go armed. They would like trained staff to have the option to conceal carry, which would increase the risk to an attacker and reduce armed response time. It would mitigate the need to have armed guards at every school.

I’m not really sure what the USCCB is trying to accomplish since they’ve provided little specifics on what they are proposing that is different, and why it would work. Separately I’ve shown there is no correlation between homicide rate and gun ownership.


#321

A lot of stuff there I don’t agree with, but since you consider other opinions “crazy”, I will address my concerns while voting.

My posts are still here. I do not believe the “last word wins,” nor will I bandy useless rhetoric.


#322

I supported my reasoning, and you ran. I think you can’t respond to my logic. Perhaps you are reasoning from emotion. Try applying some logic.


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