Should a catholic support GUN RIGHTS?


#246

Being in the US, what else do we reference our civil freedoms to, except a brilliant document that limits the state’s power to crush the individual?

Even individual progressives.

Think about that.


#247

As long as it is the law of the land (and only so long as it is the law of the land) we are obliged to follow the Constitution (being in the US).


#249

Father,
Surely a traditionally minded Catholic such as yourself would have at least a shred of sympathy for the image of an anointed monarch…even if said anointing is now carried out by a schismatic without valid orders :P.


#250

War is the norm - military service absolutely is not. The fact that people have, as you put it, “been ignoring it” is precisely because, at least in the developed world, it is NOT the norm, and so they have the luxury of being able to ignore it. Your average Syrian, for example, whether civilian or military, simply cannot.

Yes, certain advantages are lost when societies experience lengthy periods of at least the appearance of peace. But then what is the alternative - a society on a permanent war footing? Read 1984 and look at modern-day examples like North Korea. There are a lot of cons to weigh against the pros.

Read scripture - Jesus is not the Prince of War, but rather the opposite. I happen to think that he is called so for a reason.


#251

You only have the luxury of ignoring war because someone else is doing the fighting and the bleeding for you, not because it isn’t happening. You are paying for it through your taxes. Politicians you elect, or allow to be elected, order it. You are benefitting from it every day and you are obviously callous about it.

Jesus was the Prince of Peace. But he didn’t have his head in the sand ignoring that war and injustice were not there.


#252

Easier done than that. Look at three: Mexico, Brazil and South Africa. All three have the following in common:

  • Much more restrictive gun laws than the US. Few guns in private hands.
  • But lots of guns in the hands of the government and criminals.
  • Much higher murder and violent crime rates than the US.

Suicide, you say? Japan has almost no guns in private hands and a much higher suicide rate than the US.


#253

This is precisely what a gun is not for.
Before the guns,before the Constitutions, there came civility. .


#254

Nope.

I don’t want to see the guillotine setup in London or anything like that. I wish them no harm.

My shred of sympathy is more like pity for the people who still allow themselves to be the subjects of a monarch chosen by accident of birth. Today, they have the ability to abolish monarchy and nobility by perfectly peaceful means, if only they had the good sense to do it.


#255

not my argument, i responded to this:

it is not only the police and military, the common good of the family also qualifies per ST JPII.


#256

You mean like the Dark Ages? Civil times indeed before guns or the US Constitution.


#257

The common good of the family qualifies to justify self-defense. But nothing in the JPII quote that you cited says anything about the right to bear arms.


#258

we been down this road. he cites 2265

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.


#259

No. It is far from sinful. As Catholics, and I hate to admit this, we have more to defend. We are often looked down upon and target as criminals for our faith. If we are attacked over this, we must be able to defend ourselves. I say get your permits and buy a glock. You won’t regret it.

It’s not that they aren’t clear
It’s not that I can’t hear

I’m not your peer
You just live in fear

Why would I do this?
How do you have such bliss?

It wasn’t hit or miss
I will not administer deaths kiss

He is man
Just like you and me

And I can not end his life just to make you satisfied.

But if this man comes for me, than consider him as frail as a bee

Because when I hear the battle fife
I will defend my life

Protect all who I must
Defend what is right

If this man shoots at me
His gift will be returned

So send me into battle
Ship me off to war

Just know that I am coming back
And it won’t be in a body sack

I have a family to love
A country to honor
And a lord to praise

So I will fight today
Slay all that stand in my way

You will be satisfied
You will be petrified

For I am the strongest of warriors
But the gentlest of men

I am the swiftest of fighters
But the calmest of freinds

I am a believer in all that is right
And for this I will fight.

And I will end this night.

This is a quote form something me and a freind wrote a couple months ago:

It’s not that they aren’t clear
It’s not that I can’t hear

I’m not your peer
You just live in fear

Why would I do this?
How do you have such bliss?

It wasn’t hit or miss
I will not administer deaths kiss

He is man
Just like you and me

And I can not end his life just to make you satisfied.

But if this man comes for me, than consider him as frail as a bee

Because when I hear the battle fife
I will defend my life

Protect all who I must
Defend what is right

If this man shoots at me
His gift will be returned

So send me into battle
Ship me off to war

Just know that I am coming back
And it won’t be in a body sack

I have a family to love
A country to honor
And a lord to praise

So I will fight today
Slay all that stand in my way

You will be satisfied
You will be petrified

For I am the strongest of warriors
But the gentlest of men

I am the swifte


#260

What is with the accusation of callousness?

I am - somewhat clumsily, for which I apologise - stating, accurately I think, that your average American or Western European, or Australian, etc. does NOT serve in the military to anything like the extent they did in your father’s day in WWII, and has NOT had the training such people received and receive, which equips them for decision-making under pressure.

Nor, additionally, have they suffered the experience of having their homelands invaded by foreign military or riven by civil war, as those in other parts of the world may have, and as many such as my parents and grandparents had in WWII.

These are facts for which I am extremely grateful and count myself blessed. Some of my overseas relatives are not so fortunate, so I am keenly aware of the blessing. Hence my describing it as luxury, which was intended as no sort of callousness.

But I would add that, lacking this sort of experience of war, either from the perspective of military service or civilian caught up in armed conflict, yes, your average citizen of a developed country does lack the decision-making skills that are developed in the context of such experience.

I do think the downsides of war or war training are many, and am unsure that the benefits necessarily justify them as much as you seem to think.


#261

“Those who legitimately hold authority” does not mean everyone and his brother.


#262

Nemo dat quod non habet.

Those who hold such authority cannot have it unless it was first given to them. It can only be given to them by those who posses it in the first place.

The government only has the authority to keep and bear arms because “we the people” have delegated to them that authority. “We the people” does indeed mean “everyone and his brother.”


#263

Everyone has the right to participate in the delegation of authority. But they do not all have the authority to do as individuals what their government can do. A good example is incarceration. People have the right to empower their government to incarcerate criminals. But individuals do not have the authority to incarcerate criminals on their own. That argues against your claim that people cannot ever grant what they do not have. Individuals do not have the authority to declare war on a nation. But they can enable their government to do so. People have the right to authorize their government to build roads on public land. But individuals do not have the right to do so themselves. Come to think of it, there are lots of things people can authorize that they are not allowed to do themselves.


#264

Yes, we do. If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, I have every right and every authority to subdue that person. The administration of justice is delegated by the people to the government.


#265

Only in the name of the people. The government has no rightful authority unless it was given to them by the people.


#266

That’s not incarceration. You can’t sentence someone to 6 months locked up in your basement. But you can authorize your government to do so. (But probably not in your basement)


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