Should a leader get paid?

Members of the LDS faith recieve no recompense for their work and dedication. I know the same is true for people of other faiths. There is many unlogged hours put into a church.

Do you think pastors, priests, etc. should receive pay for their ministries?

I thought the GA’s (general authorities), mission leaders, temple leaders, etc. get paid a stipend? Granted the stake and ward level leaders are volunteer slaves :slight_smile:

Luke 10 makes it clear that one shouldn’t beg in the context of Christian work, but that a worker deserves his wages. 1 Timothy 5 states that laborers are worthy of reward.

The Apostles relied on the support of their followers. Jesus Himself had no occupation during his ministry. He relied entirely on others. The Church has always supported its clergy. Our Bishops, Priests and most of our Deacons have no other occupation. No other job, but their duties in service to God. St. Paul taught that it was the right way to do things.

1 Cor. 9:1-14
Phil. 4:14-19

I agree, mostly. Although Paul himself was a tentmaker…

Most workers have a family to support. So we must help them.

That’s very admirable. I think ministers & pastors & so on should be provided for freely, willingly, & not receive a fixed salary. I also think Christians should avoid & reject capitalism.

Why should Christians avoid and reject capitalism? Capitalism is economic freedom. Don’t you believe in freedom?

Obviously if Christ reigned over the earth we would have something better than capitalism, but among the economic systems that are on earth right now, which one is better than capitalism?

How is it that you would have ministers, pastors, etc. provide for themselves? I mean, if you want people who are able to defend the teachings of their church and to adequately teach those who attend the church, then you should want them to spend a lot of time reading the Bible, reading books related to the Bible, and doing similar things. Most professionals have to be reading new material regarding their field. How is it that you would have a minister/pastor/etc. not only know theology very well, to supervise a church, and to be there to aid those who attend the church, but also to be a professional in another field and therefore not only having to attend to that job for 40 hours a week, but also reading the materials necessary to keep up in their field. There are 168 hours in a week. If you assume they sleep for 8 hours a day, then you are down to 112 hours a week. If you assume they work even 30 hours a week (which is 10 hours less than a full time worker works) in their paying job, then you are down to 82 hours a week. If you assume they spend 1 hour and 15 minutes a day eating (just 25 minutes a meal), then you are down to 73 hours and 15 minutes a week. Now assume they spend just one hour a day in travel time, you are down to 66 hours and 15 minutes a week. Do you really think that just over 66 hours a week is enough time to do something that presently takes much more time to do?

Economic freedom you’ll have to explain to me: how does freedom apply to it ? I do believe that Christian faith should affect one’s pocket - & this is phenomenally difficult to bring about, if we don’t question the economic arrangements in society. :frowning:

A problem with capitalism is the usury it involves - it depends on making money “breed”, which is unnatural :frowning: I would settle for communism; not the atheistic kind, but the kind in Acts.

As to the topic: the clergy, like the laity, are weighed down by financial obligations; IMHO, they would be much freer, & more convincing, if they did not have a salary: they used not to. Why can’t that be restored ? And shouldn’t it ? Look at the Franciscans - do they have the freedom St. Francis had ? I doubt it :frowning:

Lay support.

The existence of problems is not in itself a reason for maintaining the status quo. Maybe a major revolution in how Christians live in the world is needed. That in a nutshell is how I would answer the difficulties you mention. Maybe, for the Church to be fully efficient, a lot of changes are needed. Which is more important: a lot of change in how Christians live & function in the Church; or, keeping to the status quo at the price of not being much different from anybody else in society ? ISTM that our arrangements are a mess, & need to be revised, if the Church is to be convincing.

I mean, if you want people who are able to defend the teachings of their church and to adequately teach those who attend the church, then you should want them to spend a lot of time reading the Bible, reading books related to the Bible, and doing similar things. Most professionals have to be reading new material regarding their field. How is it that you would have a minister/pastor/etc. not only know theology very well, to supervise a church, and to be there to aid those who attend the church, but also to be a professional in another field and therefore not only having to attend to that job for 40 hours a week, but also reading the materials necessary to keep up in their field. There are 168 hours in a week. If you assume they sleep for 8 hours a day, then you are down to 112 hours a week. If you assume they work even 30 hours a week (which is 10 hours less than a full time worker works) in their paying job, then you are down to 82 hours a week. If you assume they spend 1 hour and 15 minutes a day eating (just 25 minutes a meal), then you are down to 73 hours and 15 minutes a week. Now assume they spend just one hour a day in travel time, you are down to 66 hours and 15 minutes a week. Do you really think that just over 66 hours a week is enough time to do something that presently takes much more time to do?

Don’t wait for “society” to change. If you believe in that “each according to his need” thing, just give away everything that you don’t truly need.

According to this plan, you should make as much money as you can, according to your true ability. What you don’t absolutely need should be given to others who have a greater need.

Why are you waiting for the law to force this upon you?

The laborer is worth his wages. I believe they should get paid a reasonable amount that will cover their expenses, rent, food, etc. However, when I was an evangelical, it quite honestly miffed me off to no end when I saw the preacher driving his Lexus around- that WE paid for. I didn’t even have a vehicle. I was a janitor at his church and walked to work in the snow. Guess whether or not he ever offered me a ride… :mad:

So you think that a priest/pastor/etc. should live off of support from those they minister over, but that they should not receive a salary?

Furthermore, you speak as though you are against people having anything more than they need to live off of. If that is the case, how is anyone going to give to clergy?

I was afraid you were going to say communism. Someone has done you a serious disservice in teaching you that communism could ever be better than capitalism. I am so sorry.

I don’t think I can even help you. Trying to tell you how capitalism is freedom is kinda like asking me to explain to you what the Bible says. Way to much. Perhaps you should take a class (or several) on it.

I don’t need you to explain to me what the Bible says, but I would love for you to explain to me how capitalism is anything like the way the early Christians and Church Fathers lived.

Yes I do and reading this from an LDS bishop just makes me feel more strongly about it.

Depends on the ward to some extent but not really. More on the size than the demographics I think-- what is amazing is that EVERY family has problems and requires some time regardless of demographics like old young, rich poor etc. If they’re rich they have problem set a, old, problem set b, poor, problem set c etc. But everybody’s got problems. But that number, 35 hours is about right as an average I would bet. It’s hard to figure because you get phone calls at work etc – you would have to log every minute-- it’s not like 7-9 pm Tuesdays, and 6:30 am to 6:30 pm Sundays (not atypical- Sundays typically are 3 hour block plus another 2 hours for leadership meetings, then another 2 or so counseling, another hour for byc or something like that, throw in some regional meeting or a fireside and it runs up to 10-12 hours easily just on Sunday. Saturdays are good for at least 6 with planning and some activity or other, then you typically have 2-3 hours most evenings of the week, (at least 3 for sure) throw in a funeral which can go 4-5 hours with the graveside and the luncheon, or a baptism which is good for about 2 hours, an emergency or two for another who knows how long – and it gets to 30+ without even doing “optional” stuff like actually visiting widows, or doing paperwork etc. I actually got 3 phone calls while writing this. No kidding. Not typical, but true.

I don’t see where he has much time for his family. Somewhat ironic coming from the people with radio ads that talk about spending time with family and the end tag “family, isn’t it about time?”

It is similar in that it did not force anyone to be generous. Christians willfully gave of their time, talents, and riches to help the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and support the widows and orphans. There was no government mandate, no big brother program, no mafia style gastapo forcing them to do it. They did it because they loved their neighbor.

Now you tell me – How is paying more taxes so the government gets to decide how generous you will be in any way more Christian than having the freedom to be generous with your own money?

The difference in today’s capitalism is not in the economic system, but in the level of greed among the people. (Sadly even among Christians) When greed and laziness increase, the effectiveness of capitalism decreases, and the more people are duped into thinking the government is the answer.

You cannot replace big G (God) with little g (government).

The wages of God were never money. A man or woman who labors for God hopes for treasure where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt and where thieves cannot break through and steal. For where his treasure is, there will his heart be also.

Men who serve God for money are selling something they never rightfully owned in the first place. You cannot serve God and mammon.

There is a time and a season for everything. When a man has proven that he can take care of his family he is asked to serve the people for a time. A Bishop is only asked to serve for a few years, but his family will see the blessings of a righteous man’s service for a lifetime.

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