Should active homosexuals be permitted to flaunt their lifestyle at a CatholicSchool?


#1

Last month I posted this question (thread) in the “Ask an Apologist” forum.

Question:

Dear Father Serpa,

My question is, should active homosexuals be permitted to flaunt their lifestyle at a Catholic School? A homosexual couple (men) has enrolled two of their four adopted children into our parish school. The two men are openly gay, they live together in the same house, they wear wedding rings and they are affiliated with Gay activists’ organizations. I feel the two men are flaunting their lifestyle and causing scandal by frequently appearing together at school and church functions (including our youth Mass where they volunteer) as a couple and as a family. They bring their children to school together almost everyday. I believe this situation is negatively influencing our students, parents, faculty at the school and our very impressionable teenagers at our youth Mass into thinking that homosexual unions are okay. The children and adults who aren’t aware of the church teachings on homosexuality are saying things like “The men are so nice” or “They make such a beautiful family” or “This is the society we live in we may as well get used to it now” or “There are all kinds of families” and the worst “If we listened to everything that came from Rome (The Vatican) we would be living in the Dark Ages”.

I am deeply troubled by this situation and I’m confused as to why our principal or pastor has not addressed the issue with the two men yet. There are many of us who have been praying for these two men in the hopes that they will have a conversion but how can we hope or think that the men will ever have a conversion if they are not corrected in their sins? We’ve been praying especially for the adopted children of these two men who are truly innocent victims

Answer:

Dear GP,

If the couple were a man and a woman who were open about the fact that they were not married, it would be a matter of scandal for the parish to approve such behavior by not challenging it. To give scandal is much more than simply shocking behavior as the dictionary defines it. According to St. Thomas (II-II, Q. liii, a. 1) scandal is a word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin.

For the administration of a parish to allow such an open show of defiance of the Church’s moral teaching regarding sexual behavior is not only irresponsible, it is a scandal in itself! Our Lord had some very strong words about one who would scandalize His little ones: “…it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” (Mt 18:6)

As to the attitude that this is the society we live in so we might as well get used to it: what about our Lord’s command that we are to be salt for the earth! He said that if salt looses its ability to be different from that to which it is applied, it is good for nothing and ought to be trampled under foot. We have the world’s only Good News. What a tragedy to water it down!

As for listening to everything that comes from Rome bringing us to the Dark Ages, the Catholic Church was the only ray of light during the Dark Ages. It alone preserved the culture. And it alone is the ray of light today! But one would hardly know this to look at some parishes and chancery offices.

Thank God for the laity. In so many places today as in the past, it is they who are leading the clergy in fidelity to the Magisterium.

As the dramatization on EWTN says, “It’s our Catholic faith. Let’s live it!”

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Please click on link below to view thread:


Should active homosexuals be permitted to flaunt their lifestyle at a CatholicSchool?


#2

Do you have an update on how things are going at the school now?


#3

My comment (as a school principal I once faced a very similar situation with two apparent lesbians, though they were not as flagrant as the case cited above) is this: The students are not to be asked to leave the school, as that is punishing the kids for the sins of the parents.

**UNLESS:

**The rule I laid down at my school was crossed: Clear continuation of scandal after correction occurred. At which time, sadly, the family would be asked to leave.

This did not happen in my case, as there was not a clear indication that the women were living in sin. If they had been wearing wedding rings and going to ACT-UP parades, and persisted after correction, sayonara.


#4

GloriaPatri4,

why do you dwell on this stuff? if you are worried about the wholeness of your children, you need not. as much as they know that you love them, they have to know that you hate homosexuals. how could they ever dream of looking at someone that is the same sex and ever imagine having sex with them, knowing that their mother would declare all-out war on anyone involved. you’d wage war on the mailman that seemed like a sissy and on those guys that wore those rings. how could they ever offend you that way? they know where you stand!!

you couldn’t have possibly hidden how much you’d hate it, if they ever got caught up in that. oh, but you’d love them though. they know that. kids can barely figure out what’s what, but they can tell you’d love them as a person, but hate their sin, right? Jesus didn’t have to deal with these fornicators or he’d have persecuted them too. i’m not the only one who get’s it. your children aren’t blind. because of you, they know that Jesus confronts the world he wants to convert with diligent hate. they have you as a saintly example.

on another thread, i said that i might have said something offensive and then i applogized. that was a mistake, and i apologize. i didn’t really mean to say that i didn’t mean to offend you. but if you stop being a bigotted perseuctor, i might feel differently.


#5

btw, i taught at a school in the l.a. archdiocese as a math teacher. you don’t have to worry about the lifestyle of parents. most kids couldn’t care less about other parents. worry about the faculty. at the high school i was at, about 10% of the faculty/staff were gay. you wouldn’t be a moron to conclude that by looking either. i voiced my disapproval with a teacher that lived with another man over a beer. he gave me a shrug and said ‘whatever’. needless to say, i got fired after that first year (over unrelated issues i think.)

the point is, leave the kids alone. the adults are the problem.


#6

To JUSTSOMEGUY:

I have known, know and will know some homosexuals throughout my life. I do not hate THEM, I hate what they practice. I hate what the movement of political homosexual groups are trying to do. Normalcy is their intention and it is just not normal behavior. I, too am worried for my children, but have not outwardly shown this worry to them. I do not think that just because GloriaPatri is “dwelling” on this she is communicating hate to her children or persecution as you put it. Compassion is needed for those who are troubled with sexuality and those are who we need to pry for. Pray for celibacy or conversion for man, woman and children. Try not to be so defensive.

Sleepless


#7

[quote=JustSomeGuy]GloriaPatri4,

why do you dwell on this stuff? if you are worried about the wholeness of your children, you need not. as much as they know that you love them, they have to know that you hate homosexuals. how could they ever dream of looking at someone that is the same sex and ever imagine having sex with them, knowing that their mother would declare all-out war on anyone involved. you’d wage war on the mailman that seemed like a sissy and on those guys that wore those rings. how could they ever offend you that way? they know where you stand!!

you couldn’t have possibly hidden how much you’d hate it, if they ever got caught up in that. oh, but you’d love them though. they know that. kids can barely figure out what’s what, but they can tell you’d love them as a person, but hate their sin, right? Jesus didn’t have to deal with these fornicators or he’d have persecuted them too. i’m not the only one who get’s it. your children aren’t blind. because of you, they know that Jesus confronts the world he wants to convert with diligent hate. they have you as a saintly example.

on another thread, i said that i might have said something offensive and then i applogized. that was a mistake, and i apologize. i didn’t really mean to say that i didn’t mean to offend you. but if you stop being a bigotted perseuctor, i might feel differently.
[/quote]

Pretty serious allegations. This must have touched a sore spot for you. I feel bad because you sound like you are in pain over this.

Active homosexuality is a grievous sin. Grievous sin separates us from God. Please notice that I said “active.” If the person knows that it is a grievous sin, thinks about it and decides to do it anyways then it becomes a mortal sin and that is a mortal wound to the soul.

Jesus has commanded us to love each other as ourselves. Knowing that, if I ever should commit or think about committing a grievous sin, I beg everyone and anyone to stop me in my tracks and try to bring me back to God’s will. Not my will but God’s will be done.

Now having said that, my duty is also to protect children to the best of my ability. Children are vulnerable and can be easily led astray. If they are led to believe that active homosexuality is fine then that is leaving them open to grievous sin. This would not be love in action. This would be Satan in action. (I am not referring to active homosexuals as Satan. Just saying that his hand would be in this).

Remember, a grievous sin separates us from God in a grievous way. I am not trying to antagonize you. I’m just saying that Satan wishes to pull all of us away from God and “normalizing” grievous sins is just one of the ways.

I say all of this in fear and trembling because I don’t want to hurt you. It is out of love that I say this. Active homosexuals are precious to God because they are his children. The “active” part is an abomination.


#8

[quote=SusanL]Pretty serious allegations. This must have touched a sore spot for you. I feel bad because you sound like you are in pain over this.

Active homosexuality is a grievous sin. Grievous sin separates us from God. Please notice that I said “active.” If the person knows that it is a grievous sin, thinks about it and decides to do it anyways then it becomes a mortal sin and that is a mortal wound to the soul.

Jesus has commanded us to love each other as ourselves. Knowing that, if I ever should commit or think about committing a grievous sin, I beg everyone and anyone to stop me in my tracks and try to bring me back to God’s will. Not my will but God’s will be done.

Now having said that, my duty is also to protect children to the best of my ability. Children are vulnerable and can be easily led astray. If they are led to believe that active homosexuality is fine then that is leaving them open to grievous sin. This would not be love in action. This would be Satan in action. (I am not referring to active homosexuals as Satan. Just saying that his hand would be in this).

Remember, a grievous sin separates us from God in a grievous way. I am not trying to antagonize you. I’m just saying that Satan wishes to pull all of us away from God and “normalizing” grievous sins is just one of the ways.

I say all of this in fear and trembling because I don’t want to hurt you. It is out of love that I say this. Active homosexuals are precious to God because they are his children. The “active” part is an abomination.
[/quote]

what you are saying doesn’t hurt. reminding me what sin is doesn’t hurt, not really necessary, but still doesn’t hurt.

my point is that kids don’t turn away from hateful parents because of what they hate. they just turn away from hateful parents. there is a big difference in a kid’s mind from knowing what a parent believes and wondering why their parents’ attitude doesn’t match what Jesus teaches. if satan is powerless against the truth, then teach children the truth. don’t teach them the methods of the devil by attacking the person.

should they stop living their lifestyle? sure. but if you wage war, your kids become warlike. that’s not Christ. He ate with sinners. that means He could tolerate being in their presence to convert them. if we don’t do the same, how will they be converted? tell your kids that it is wrong, that God loves us more than that, etc. then tell them that by a firm, truthful presence, which never condones, but loves, they can teach conversion. do not make them push the sinner into sin by teaching them aversion. who will excort the sinner to Christ? other banished sinners?

let’s let our actions and attitude support our goals. if you only plan to not “approve of their lifestyle” and do nothing else, then by all means stay away. if you have higher goals, then enlighten your spirit, and prepare your kids to be Christ-like.


#9

[quote=JustSomeGuy]what you are saying doesn’t hurt. reminding me what sin is doesn’t hurt, not really necessary, but still doesn’t hurt.

my point is that kids don’t turn away from hateful parents because of what they hate. they just turn away from hateful parents. there is a big difference in a kid’s mind from knowing what a parent believes and wondering why their parents’ attitude doesn’t match what Jesus teaches. if satan is powerless against the truth, then teach children the truth. don’t teach them the methods of the devil by attacking the person.

should they stop living their lifestyle? sure. but if you wage war, your kids become warlike. that’s not Christ. He ate with sinners. that means He could tolerate being in their presence to convert them. if we don’t do the same, how will they be converted? tell your kids that it is wrong, that God loves us more than that, etc. then tell them that by a firm, truthful presence, which never condones, but loves, they can teach conversion. do not make them push the sinner into sin by teaching them aversion. who will excort the sinner to Christ? other banished sinners?

let’s let our actions and attitude support our goals. if you only plan to not “approve of their lifestyle” and do nothing else, then by all means stay away. if you have higher goals, then enlighten your spirit, and prepare your kids to be Christ-like.
[/quote]

Ok. Let me see if I understand correctly. (Always helps to clarify).

You are saying to be careful how we teach our children. If we sound like we are hateful then that is what the children learn.

So far, I agree with that. Ok. On to the next.

Are you saying that we should not shield our children from those who live in sin and flaunt it? If so then I would disagree.

When I say “shield,” I mean being not being around them. It’s one thing for an adult to make decisions based on information we gather. Children don’t have the life experience that adults have.

I also don’t let my kids go to a heterosexual couple’s home if they are not married. Even to see their friends. Won’t happen. That, too, normalizes grievous sin.

This makes it really difficult in today’s society. We don’t watch a lot of television (except for well-chosen videos). Kids aren’t strong enough to handle converting others. Heck, the only hope I have of doing that is by my words, prayers and behaviour. And really, that is the Holy Spirit doing it, not me. I have to get out of the way.

Kids are easily influenced. My friend’s niece and nephew (for example) were both raised in Catholic school by devout parents. Each child heard one teacher speak against the Catholic faith. (One in high school and one in college). The kids had a strong admiration for these teachers so that kind of opened the door for the influence. The kids came home full of doubt. Their Aunt (my friend) had to do damage control.

Oops. Sorry. Gotta go. Long-distance call coming in.

Good conversation. Hope I can pick this up later.

Sue


#10

I voted NO of course…

But I must sadly break the news to everyone that active homosexuals being permitted to flaunt their objectively disordered lifestyle in Catholic Schools is old news in St. Paul/Minneapolis Minnesota. We even have parishes flaunting it here now while totally ignoring what the Catechism(CCC 2357) or the Scriptures(Genesis 19, Romans 1: 24-27 and 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10) have to say about it. If any active homosexual or an advocate gives you the line “The Bible says nothing against homosexuality”, plug down one or more of those verses to them.:wink:

Aside from St. Agnes school, and maybe a few others, the culture of death has infiltrated very deeply into the Twin Cities Catholic School system and in numerous parishes, and the Archbishop (Harry Flynn) apparently either is politically unwilling or unable to do anything about it. Here is whats going on in Minnesota forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=42779 :banghead:

And please take part in this poll if you haven’t already forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=43096


#11

Related Thread

Click on link to thread: Group still opposes enrolling kids of gay or unmarried parents in Catholic schools


#12

Regardless if its public school or private…active homosexuals should not be allowed to teach school from grades K thru Sophmore in high school.


#13

Click on link below to read related thread “In The News” forum:

Bishop Brown answers my letter and sends one the same day to SJB pastor, 2-10-05


#14

**Should active homosexuals be permitted to flaunt their lifestyle at a CatholicSchool? **

NO!!! People going to Catholic schools, or working for them, or attending school functions should keep their lifestyle private, as it is at odds with the Church. Furthermore, they should not flaunt their lifestyle anywhere. They don’t want our views shoved down their throat and they complain about it nonstop- if they want to think that way, then they should respect the fact that we may not want their views shoved down our throats.


#15

No. But neither should unmarried heterosexuals. If a couple becomes a source of scandal for my school (I used to be a Catholic school administrator), they are admonished and instructed to cease the scandalous behavior. If they persist, they will be told -with regret- to leave.

The last thing I wanted to do was to penalize the child. . .but if scandal were to become a paramount issue, that family has to go. . .just as a kid who persists in behavioral rottenness has to go, for the good of the whole community.

This is NOT to say that morality litmus tests are to be applied. Simply put, the family/couple needs to not scandalize the larger community. If they do and persist in that doing, out the door.


#16

Similar thread

****Lesbian Couple Sue Oregon Catholic School Over Daughter’s Admission


#17

No… not in the workplace of the school, nor the social setting of the school and certainly not from the teaching authority of the school.

I say that the bar needs to be extended to any heterosexual who is also acting in such a scandalous manner.

Yet, the welfare of the children should always be kept in mind.


#18

No… not in the workplace of the school, nor the social setting of the school and certainly not from the teaching authority of the school.

I say that the bar needs to be extended to any heterosexual who is also acting in such a scandalous manner.

Yet, the welfare of the children should always be kept in mind.

Yes!!! dcmac, we disagree on other forums, but here we are in complete agreement. Tie it to behavior and dispense consequences accordingly.


#19

Here in MA ,a Catholic school teacher living in a scandalous heterosexual relationship was let go. She put up a stink and went to the media, but this didn’t work for her cause. Imagine being so ignorant as to defend the indefensible and go on TV to do it! This is how far out of whack things get when everybody looks the other way- a whole raft full of people with no moral compass. If you think you can “get by” because you are “not like them”, think again, because these are the folks that also vote, raise amoral children, approve programming in schools, etc, etc, etc. and all of these will sooner or later end up crossing over into the lives of others. It is for our own advantage as well as for others that we keep each other in check.


#20

When I was running my Catholic school, I replaced a nun. I had two non-Catholic staff who were dating. The woman asked what would happen if they moved in together. I was blunt. I said I’d tell the two of them to separate households immediately. If they didn’t I would sack them.

They got married 8 months later.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.