Should the Tridentine Mass fade away?


#1

In todays Detroit Free Press, the return of the Tridentine Mass to the Detroit archdiocese at St Josaphat church was the subject of an article. freep.com/news/religion/cath3_20040803.htm A Rev. Thomas Reese, editor of America Magazine in New York City, states that “The hope is that this mass eventually will fade away” and that the indult is provided for older people who still feel an attachment to this form of the mass, too much success would spoil this venture.

Why is it a problem for younger people to prefer the TLM? The Mass being permitted in hope that it fades away is alarming as well, I hope that that is not the position of those at St Josaphat. With all the well documented problems with liturgical abuses in the NO, why is it that the reverent TLM is viewed as a problem?


#2

It won’t. It isn’t just us grey heads that attend and if there is still such a desire for it after 34 years, it probably won’t fade, and won’t replace, but will co-exist.


#3

[quote=Why is it a problem for younger people to prefer the TLM?
[/QUOTE]
As a moderator for a high school apologetics class, I often hear the response “Cuz it’s in Latin” as the reason most young people don’t want a return to the TLM.

We spent some time on comparing the old prayers with their replacement as I emphasized “it’s not the Latin, it’s the prayers and reverenc.”

They learned how the changes came to be, and how other abuses eventually became the “norm”. Without exception all students (I average 30-40 each night) said yes to including a little Latin in next year’s classes. Some are currently reading more on the topic and asking email questions even during our “off-time” during the summer.

Even the chaplain at our local law school - Ave Maria School of Law - will be adding the TLM this fall, along with a regular Latin Mass each day.

More and more Catholics (not Kerry-Catholics) are expressing interest in the TLM. Soon (I hope) both will be available with the TLM back in its prominent place.

MrShttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
[/quote]


#4

Isn’t American Magazine a Jesuit publication? If my assertion is correct we can safely understand and realize the reasons for Fr. Reese commenting in such a way. The Jesuits are not what they used to be. I think that the TLM will be with us always. I think that eventually, the TLM will come back more and more. The prayers will reemerge in the Pauline Mass, until eventually there is a melding of the two Masses (i.e. influences of both into one united Mass for the Latin Rite). I welcome any comments. I do not see a full restoration of the TLM as being the primary Rite within the Latin Rite, maybe others do and if you have some argumentation to support such a contention, please let us hear. I, personally, would like to see the TLM return more fully. I think, though, that what would be more conducive – rather, what would be better for the sake of the faithful – is to have a literal translation of the TLM into the vernacular (a GOOD translation) much like that which is used at Our Lady of Atonement in Texas – this parish is the only Anglican-use Parish in the USA.


#5

Not possible,… " lo I am with you all days; even to the end of the world. "


#6

[quote=frdave20]Our Lady of Atonement in Texas – this parish is the only Anglican-use Parish in the USA.
[/quote]

Not to drag the thread way off topic, but are you sure about this, Father? Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston lists a lot of other Anglican Use parishes in Texas on their website.


#7

If *America *and St. Anthony Messenger deride anything, it usually means it’s pretty orthodox! :smiley:


#8

frdave

Fr usuallly denotes Father - are you a priest?


#9

Okay, here’s my $0.02 worth… No, the Tridentine Mass should not fade away. This Liturgy spoke to the Latin Church for 500 years, and major parts of it spoke to the Church in Rome for at least 500 years before that! The Roman Canon goes back to the 4th or 5th century so it speaks with a voice that is truely that of the Church Fathers.

At the same time, it is no longer the normative Mass for the Latin Church. It should, therefore, exist as the “elder ritual” in the Latin Church – still used for those who are fed by it, still permitted by the bishops, but not to replace the Mass of Paul VI.

BTW, I grew up serving the Tridentine Mass, and still find it beautiful – along with such other ancient liturgical forms as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (“We did not know if we were in heaven or on earth.” – Russian observers), the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil and the Presanctified Liturgy.

Deacon Ed


#10

It will all rest on the quality of Catechesis. If we take the time to teach people the Mass and the Latin over time it will become a meaningful means of worship for even the young people. However if we just start offering the TRM with little or no instruction, it will die off.


#11

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]It will all rest on the quality of Catechesis. If we take the time to teach people the Mass and the Latin over time it will become a meaningful means of worship for even the young people. However if we just start offering the TRM with little or no instruction, it will die off.
[/quote]

I think you are right.

If my apologetics classes aren’t fun, no one learns or enjoys learning. We start with one concept, get it down pat and then build on it - best way to learn I think.

Also, nice to see some reason does come out of NChttp://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MrS


#12

Hello All, This is my first post.I returned to the Catholic Church over a year ago after a 30 yr absence.It was a Tridentine Mass and I felt instantly at home so much so that I made a confession and received Communion after the service.The modesty in dress was very refreshing, Also the music was very uplifting.Unfortunately after I returned home I was 2 hours away from this type of mass and attended a local Novus Ordo Mass.It was like I came in from outer space but I adapted to it. Watching the daily Mass on EWTN with it’s Latin prayers helped. Also the church interior was changed minimally with the large marble altar still in the background and a marble table added .Even the marble communion rail was retained except for a section in front of the Table. However any mention of Latin brings a hostile response especially when I sang the Tanctum Ergo in Latin .
I wrote to the bishop of my diocese(Altoona,Pa.) about giving permission to at least one church for the Tridentine mass and got an evasive reply that it was tried previously as an offer to prevent a church(that was scheduled for closing) from breaking away and didn’t succeed.
I try to find a Indult TM when travelling but sometimes can only find a PSSX church which I attended recently in the Philadelphia area.
Does any know of a web site that lists Tridentine Mass schedules all over the country? Please advise.
In summary this Mass should never fade away.I always have hope that I can attend one if only on my travels and experience it’s ageless beauty.
Pax
Charles

PS During my days away from the faith I always loved to listen to the great masses written my Haydn,Mozart,Shubert,Verdi etc.This made me think of the structure of the mass and listen for the prayers.


#13

Yes - here is a list of Valid and Licit Tridentine Masses.

Wouldn’t Pgh. be closer than Philly?

Try to avoid going to SSPX Chapels for Mass.


#14

Welcome to the forums! I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.

Deogratias was (as usual) right on track, but I don’t think her link came through. I bet she meant to link to here.


#15

It is my hope that the Tridentine Mass will never fade away…not ever.
Loosing something like that would be to forget where we come from.
And us who are younger should carry it on to our young and tell them to guard our faith with their lives as we should if necessary.


#16

I do not attend the Tridentine Mass, but I know that I and all the rest of us that do not attend would still be made poorer by the loss of this liturgy.

Absolutely not, it should not fade away.


#17

Thanks TLM - I probably forgot to plug it in LOL


#18

Well, that is the hope it would fade away, from the ediotor of the very progressive Jesuit ran magazine, America, but that hope that the mass would fade away, 20 years after the original indults, is gone. It is ironic, much of the push towrds liturgical reform, those who are pushing for liturgical reforms, are those who are in the traidtionalist camp, or should I say restoration. The progressive camp is mostly an older crowd and their energy is largely spent. The fact that the FSSP has among the most success can be seen as a failure to those who have pushed the progressive agenda.


#19

[quote=frdave20]* I think that the TLM will be with us always. I think that eventually, the TLM will come back more and more. *

That appears to be just what Fr. Reese fears - his reasoning is :…The only thing that could spoil the venture at St. Josaphat is too much success, Reese said.

“When the pope authorized bishops to allow this mass in 1984, the idea was that this was a pastoral response to older people who still are so attached to this older mass that they need it,” Reese said Monday. “The idea was never to create a new desire in people for this mass.”

Maida’s decision to allow it at St. Josaphat seems in keeping with the spirit of Vatican rules, Reese said. But, “It would be counterproductive if too many people turn this into a marketing strategy to fill churches. The idea behind allowing this mass was that it could help older people in the later stages of their lives. The hope is that this mass eventually will fade away.”

freep.com/news/religion/cath3_20040803.htm
[/quote]


#20

That is pretty funny that it was just supposed to be for the old people…hah…be careful what you wish for huh? Now there is a whole generation of young who would rather have the Tridentine Mass…right on!
We need old people to keep going to the Tridentine Mass for a long time and then when they try to reverse it and take it away 20 years from now, we can be like “Hey, wait a minute, you can’t do that, there is still old people here”…yup, an insurance policy!
I don’t mean to offend any old people though:nope: …we need them, they are our wisdom and who we look up too, besides, you don’t have to be old in your heart;) !


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