Should this be allowed?


#1

We had several catechumans baptized on Easter vigil. One of them was a woman who was baptized along with her two kids. (The older one was sooo cute when he protested that the water in the baptismal pool was cold! His mom had to get back in with him to keep him in there) Anyway, I went to school with the guy that she’s married to and his mom is a Eucharistic minister and very involved in the church. I’m sure she was glad to see her daughter in law and her two grandkids join the church.

Here’s the kicker. In the bulletin last week, they had in insert where all the candidates for baptism had written a little Thank you note to the parish for welcoming them in and everything. This particular girl had a different last name than her husband and I thought that was odd but possibly just kept her last name…

NOPE! In her thank you letter, she referred to her “husband” as her BOYFRIEND!!! So here they are living together and have two kids together and aren’t married.

I’m glad that she wants to be Catholic and I gladly welcome her but shouldn’t the priest have denied her since she’s obviously sinning?

Sorry if I sound rude. I’m probably totally ignorant in the matter. Can anyone set me straight?

PS - one of the other catechumans is openly gay… :confused: Now, THAT’s OK right? As long as he’s not in a relationship with another man? (I’m not bashing this guy either - He’s super awesome and very active in our community. He also used to cut my hair. Great Guy!!! Great Asset to our parish!)


#2

I share your concern. I don’t see how someone who is shacking up can claim to accept the Church’s teachings. Are you sure the children are his? Perhaps he is the boyfriend, but they have another father and she is not living with him?

I also don’t understand what you mean by “openly gay”. Doesn’t that mean that he is flaunting his sexuality? Isn’t that in itself a sin? Or does he go around and proclaim he is a celibate gay person who knows he has a cross to bear and has a responsibility to remain single and celibate? Surely, he knows the Church’s teachings, so either the priest told him that those teachings don’t matter or he has chosen to live a celibate lifestyle?


#3

Hi,
The kids have the boyfriends last name. His mom talks to my mom all the time. They’ve been comparing notes for 3 years about what their grandkids are doing developmentally. Their oldest is about the same age as my oldest and their 2nd seems to be about the same again as MY second. “OH! Your grandson can count to 30! Yes, my granddaughter recently made it that far too” etc etc. They’ve been doing this for a long time. I’m sure they’re his kids.

And about the guy being openly gay. He is out of the closet. He freely talks to other people about “If I were straight, I would totally have a crush on her” that kind of thing. I wouldn’t say he flaunts it though. I have no idea if he has plans to live celibate. I really hope our priest talked to him while he was in RCIA!


#4

How do you know they are not living as brother and sister?


#5

Or maybe they’ve spoken to the priest and this is the first step in “doing the right thing” and marriage is down the road…


#6

Exactly my thought! They may have finally decided to make things right. Good for them!


#7

I would agree with a previous poster…they may be living as brother and sister (and if baptism was all she recieved (or full initiation?) I don’t believe that can be denied, since it is grace from God) - we don’t know that.

Regarding the homosexual individual - he may be livong a celibate life - I’m not sure how one would respind to certian ussues as a celibate homosexual, bit they may put it out in the open, and I don’t think this is necessarily flaunting it. It may allow anyone else with a similar struggle to come to that person for advice.


#8

Our bishop just spoke to our women’s group about confirmation, etc. A similar situation came up in conversation. He said that in a situation where a non-Christian couple is married (or not) in a civil ceremony, and then one or both decide to join the Church, it is not only permissible, but also preferred, that they have their marriage blessed during the same Mass during which they are baptized and confirmed.

According to his comments, the woman you are describing should probably have recieved 4 Sacraments during that Mass: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, and Holy Matrimony. Only she and her priest know the reasons for doing it any other way.


#9

She did also recieve confirmation a few moments later.

Thanks you guys. I didn’t know about possibly living as “brother and sister” I hope thats the case. (when I first read this I thought “WHAT? We’ve known this family for 30 years. They didn’t have any sisters!!!” Then I figured it out.) :o

I do agree that they are doing the right thing and they are one step closer but its just the shacking up part that really threw me for a loop.

I certainly hope they get married very soon. I really wish she had written ‘Fiance’ instead of ‘Boyfriend’.

I know its none of my business and I honestly am glad to have her and her children as members of the church but from the outside, it seems a little wrong. Again, I’m pretty ignorant about some things. Thank you all for opening me up to different possibilities. I hope that is what’s happening here.


#10

you did state a “BAPTISM” correct? why would that be a problem for a Baptism, and if she was “BAPTISED” and you believe in the church you would also understand all her sins were washed away at time of baptism, so its a fresh start on life


#11

The rest has been answered, so let me just concentrate on this one, please. :wink: It would have served no good to refer to a boyfriend as a fiance if he wasn’t one and he wasn’t. Besides, if there’s something potentially scandalous that a girlfriend and boyfriend shouldn’t do, a fiancee and fiance shouldn’t do that either. What difference does it make in case of shacking up? It’s still wrong. Marrying later doesn’t change the previous cohabitation. Nor does the potential past fornication retroactively become worse if she doesn’t marry the father of her children. Pregnancy or a child is not a reason to marry - there’s only one good reason to marry and that reason is to be married (as Fr. Serpa put it a while ago in the AAA forum here). Additionally, having illegitimate children is not a sin. Fornication is.


#12

if he is her boyfriend he is not her husband. Do you have proof positive they are living together and engaging in sex? Do you know for an actual fact their marital status, relationship, marriage plans etc? Are you party to what the priest told her in pastoral counselling about her situation? If not, why not just assume the best, in Christian charity, as we are obliged to do? We have a similar situation a couple of years ago, and if anyone who did not know the situation tried to make such a judgement they would have been very wrong, since the couple had the problem well in hand with the guidance of the priest.

If someone is openly gay by definition they are engaging in homosexual relationship(s). If you mean, one of the candidates is and acknowledged homosexual, that is something else. Again, in Christian charity we assume the candidates have received the priests pastoral care and are following his advice, and we are obliged to put the best construction on circumstances we observe.


#13

I wish we would learn to stay out of other people’s bedrooms and not assume the worst.

Kathy


#14

Thanks for the differing points of view, everybody.

This couple does live together, they do have two kids together, and they use the term ‘boyfriend’ which says they don’t intend to marry. I was just curious about the church’s stand on it.

I know I’m not privvy to what they discussed with the priest but knowing the boyfriend, I’m not naive enough to believe that he’s sleeping on the couch every night. :o Sorry if I offended anybody.


#15

I dont think you offended anyone its just noone wants to see “communion police” we are supposed to be reflecting with God at this time not looking around to see whom goes up and whom dont go up to receive,

As for you “knowing the Boyfriend” can people NOT change?
is that an informed **judgement **on this man, or an assumed judgement…as far as naive go I cant say I try to always assume the best in someone and he may not be sleeping on the couch he may very well have a bed in a different room, also something to point out here I have more than on occasion called a finace a Girlfriend, so words dont mean they do not plan on getting married, till you actually hear them say they are not its not fair to assume anything, assumption is the mother of all mess ups as was once told to me, and thru the years i have found this to also be true…

seems every time i assume something i am wrong…

my normally useless 2 cents

                             John

#16

I would agree with John…the point is you cannot be o100% for sure that this is not the case. Regardless, this is a matter between them and God (and by proxy between them and their priest). I’m sure this was discussed during RCIA, unless you are in a position of confidentiality to the point that you are a person she has spoken with regarding keeping her accountable for her actions. It is not your concern, and you should not be speculating.

There is the caveat of course that if you have spent time in descernment on this issue THEN have discussed with your priest about your concern for their souls…in which case you should leave it to the priest, as it does not seem that you are in a position that this would be A) well recieved or B) your responsibility (I am just basing this on your discussion of your association with the young lady in question). As John mentioned, beware of judgement, and I too have often found myself wrong when assuming…especially about things I don’t have intimate details about. And I hope I have not offended, but I always find the frank way is the best way.

God bless


#17

We wouldn’t need communion police if the teachings were spoken from the pulpit and were enforced by a faithful priest but unfortunately they arent and so some of us who defend our Lord from being profained out of ignorance, pride or just plain evilness have to “police” as you put it, Yes it is about love, just like your love of a child and reprimanding or educating them. Our love for God is supposed to surpass any human on this planet. There for out of love for my Lord I am a “policeman.” To the point that they may be living as brother and sister I think common sense can rule here and what about the “scandal” that is giving the public who read the bulliten. Shame on them. I would personaly ask in a POLITE way if they were aware of the teachings of the Church. Then inform them. Why can’t people just talk anymore.


#18

Stay out of other people’s business?


#19

actually there are no IFS when it comes to communion police, everyone in the mass is supposed to be reflecting with GOD before and after you shouldnt have time to see who is or isnt receiving if you were doing what the church teaches, practice what you preach, I myself dont have the faith that most on here do, I have still a lot of “my own ways” BUt even i couldnt tell you whom goes up to communion unless they sit next to me,WHY? because i am focusingmyself on what I am about to do, I couldnt tell you whom afterwards either why? because I am still focusing on what I have just done. and I am a person whom trains people to be very aware of whats going on around them, now if the church doors open i know it but as far as whom goes up and receieves have no clue and dont want to.

as far as scandel goes, I think its more scandalous to know someone is paying attention to whom goes up and whom dont so they can gossip about it in a forum such as this and with whom knows who else in the local community.But lets face it we all have someone in our churches whom thinks they should be the enforcers of communion,


#20

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