Simul Peccator et Justus

So…Simultaneously a sinner and just before God. Is that something Catholic accept?

Is there agreement on Simul between the Catholics and Lutherans? Is there common ground?

And NO LUTHER BASHING. There is way too much of that already. Let the Lutherans explain it and the Catholics as well, without polemic overdrive and posturing and long stupid quotes that contribute nothing to the discussion. Let the weight of the argument be telling, not who is telling the argument. Short posts, please, in honor of Forum rules.

Is there an agreement that needs to signed for your conditions of posting before we post?:smiley:

I always agree to posting in honor of forum rules.



No, they don’t. The “Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification” signed between some Roman Catholic scholars and liberal, ecumenical Lutheran bodies neither mentions this concept nor the concept of imputed righteousness. Roman Catholicism denies simul iustus et peccator and instead of the Lutheran and Reformed doctrine of forensic justification, it believes and teaches infused righteousness and analytical justification: i.e. God will only declare you just in his sight when perfect justice inheres in your soul. Hence, the need for purgatory after death. It is also considered pious by many Roman Catholics to doubt their own salvation.

I think the key element would be if Justification is a one shot deal.

Can we still be justified if we don’t confess our sins?

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. **9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. **10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There is no forgiveness without confession.

Can we be justified without forgiveness?

You don’t seem to understand the doctrine.

I am personally offended (not at anyone in particular, honestly) at this notion…

It is also considered pious by many Roman Catholics to doubt their own salvation.

It is not understanding, and quite very possibly due to our own lack of orthodox faith as individuals, the difference between being absolutely assured that when we die at some point in the distant future we will be in the same confident state which we are in right now, if we have in fact devoted ourselves to the Deposit of Faith and received reconciliation for the times we have denied the faith, whether in our hearts or deeds (not that they can be seperated at our judgment).

There is also a Grace we should all (Christianity) find as our common ground. That God`s grace has given us all that we can do to attain Forgiveness, Justification, Good Works, Heaven, and consequent merit.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Lent is a time of renewal for the whole Church, for each communities and every believer. Above all it is a “time of grace” (2 Cor6:2). God does not ask of us anything that he himself has not first given us. “We love because he first has loved us” (1 Jn 4:19).

Papa Franciso 2015 Lent

So while our Justification is a free gift and we bring nothing of ourselves to receive. It also demands letting go of what we have, and suffering with Christ.

Romans 8

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. 14** For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship**. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Or this strong admonission from Paul to Timothy

7 Command this, so that they may be without reproach. 8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This is the relationship Faith has with Works which the Church upholds. It is not that works are a cause of Christs merited grace, or even that our faith alone is a cause of Christs merited grace. But that the two are inseperable in being saved.

So while there is a moment of conversion of heart in all who accept God, it is not necessarily invincible from disowning the faith. Because to disown the faith means you have to have first owned the faith.

And to further capitalize on Isaiah`s point…

Luke 3

7 He said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers!** Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Acts 26

19 “Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.**


Just for the record, there is no official Catholic document that I have ever read that states

“it is pious of you, O Catholic, to doubt your own salvation”; it’s just not official doctrine.

Catholics have never claimed to know who is or is not saved.

Have you truly experienced Catholics telling you as such or read this in a Catholic document?


Those were bipolar questions.

So… Is that a yes or a no?

Good question!

Imputed or infused? I suppose my understanding is that sanctification is more a matter of subtraction - less of me, more of Christ. I picture it like a camera shutter; it’s not the aperture, it’s the view (Christ) that matters. This is a matter of a sort of passive cooperation with the Holy Spirit working within me, to make me less, pulled back from blocking the view of Christ, that His will may be done, that His works of love flow to His children.

Martin Luther was not a nice person. :smiley:
Sorry, couldn’t resist. :wink:



Martin Luther would drink to that! :slight_smile:

Cheers!~~ (Hoping I win the award for the shortest post…)




I still won :smiley:

Oh, all right.:stuck_out_tongue:

And now back to the thread…


What thread?

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