Sin and Salvation - Protestant view


#1

I have read many Protestant/Fundamentalist posts on salvation and how it cannot be lost after proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. Where does sin fall into this? After proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior do sins committed after this harm that relationship? Can a person sin after this conversion or is a person immune to sin and if he does sin does repentance play any part?

Is there a relationship between sin and salvation?


#2

This is one of the biggest difficulties when doing Catholic Apologetics. So many different faiths believe so many different things. It’s hard to defend until you know where they stand.

Notworthy


#3

[quote=NotWorthy]This is one of the biggest difficulties when doing Catholic Apologetics. So many different faiths believe so many different things. It’s hard to defend until you know where they stand.

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You hit the nail on the head.

hurst


#4

yes … but this really confuses me … from what I have read sin is not really an issue for Protestant/Fundamentalist believers in Jesus … but it is a big issue for Catholics. I look at the last sentence of Matthew 13 “I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” and try to reconcile that against their belief and I can’t.

It just does not make sense.


#5

An OSAS friend told me once that while sin ‘displeases’ God nothing she can do can take away his promise of salvation because she has accepted him as her Lord and Savior.

But, when I asked "What does Him being ‘Lord’ mean? Doesn’t it mean you are under his discipline, under his command? If you deliberately and willfully do not follow His commands and commit a sin such as adultery, is He really your ‘Lord’ at that moment? "

She said she’d have to get back to me. That was almost a year ago.


#6

From what I understand, the essential belief is that once one claims Christ as Lord and Savior, one is born again into a new life in Christ. Once we are born again, we are His adopted sons and daughters. Since Christ does not lose anyone that is His, once we are part of His family, we can never be “un-adopted”. Being God’s sons and daughters, born to new life in the Holy Spirit, we are inheritor’s of everlasting life. All sins, past, present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Though God may be saddened by our sins, He can no more “disinherit” us than any person would willingly abandon their own child.

Thus, salvation is assured.

That, at least, is about how I understand it.

Peace,
javelin


#7

[quote=ncgolf]I have read many Protestant/Fundamentalist posts on salvation and how it cannot be lost after proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. Where does sin fall into this? After proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior do sins committed after this harm that relationship? Can a person sin after this conversion or is a person immune to sin and if he does sin does repentance play any part?

Is there a relationship between sin and salvation?
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This is what I was taught when I was a Protestant, of course not all Protestants share the same believes.

If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you will have a miraculous occurrence take place in your heart and you will not want to commit any large sins. This does not keep you from committing various small sins.

It does seem to take free will out of the picture. Also, it is a view that naively refuses to acknowledge the many Christians that fall. A person who is caught committing adultery is not considered a Christian no matter how sincere their original salvation experience might have seemed to them.

Again not all Protestants see salvation in these terms.


#8

I had a Fundamentalist girlfriend when I was around 19 years old. She told me that as long as I prayed that prayer and meant it (asking Jesus to come into my heart and save me and be my personal lord and saviour) that it did not matter what I did afterwards.

She was very serious because I was a Catholic who was committing idolatry, witnessing others do it and not telling them about it, worshipping Mary and the Saints, etc. In her mind as she was taught in her Fundamentalist church it did not matter what sin was committed afterwards since Salvation was a gift and Jesus would never take away that gift from me no matter what I did- being since I did nothing to get that free gift there was nothing I could do to have it taken away.

Ken


#9

From what I understand, the essential belief is that once one claims Christ as Lord and Savior, one is born again into a new life in Christ. Once we are born again, we are His adopted sons and daughters. Since Christ does not lose anyone that is His, once we are part of His family, we can never be “un-adopted”. Being God’s sons and daughters, born to new life in the Holy Spirit, we are inheritor’s of everlasting life. All sins, past, present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Though God may be saddened by our sins, He can no more “disinherit” us than any person would willingly abandon their own child.

I’m a protestant, and this is what I’ve always been taught. Once we become Christians and are in that personal relationship with God, we strive to avoid sin in order to please Him. However, we are human and our sinful nature will get the best of us sometimes. Even a bad thought that pops into your head for a moment is a sin after all. It’d be impossible to be perfect. As a child will disappoint his parents here on earth from time to time, it’s like Javelin said, we’re not going to be disowned for messing up. Although you want to try very hard not to mess up :slight_smile:

If someone claims to be a Christian but lives in the ways of the world and doesn’t care to change, then they’re probably not what they say they are. You know a tree by its fruit. I always like the phrase “If saved, always saved” in place of “Once saved always saved.” :slight_smile:


#10

[quote=ncgolf]I have read many Protestant/Fundamentalist posts on salvation and how it cannot be lost after proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ. Where does sin fall into this? After proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior do sins committed after this harm that relationship? Can a person sin after this conversion or is a person immune to sin and if he does sin does repentance play any part?

Is there a relationship between sin and salvation?
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This idea originated among Reformed (“Calvinist”) Protestants. They believe that if you have faith in Christ it is because God has graciously chosen you and given you the gift of faith. Hence, God will also make sure to sanctify you. You will continue to sin (Calvinists have a very strict definition of sin, and in practice most Calvinists historically have felt horribly guilty over what Catholics would consider venial sins), but you will hate your sin and will continually repent and turn back to God. In other words, God always gives the gift of perseverance to those to whom He gives the gift of faith.

This idea has remained popular among many Protestants (especially Baptists) who have long abandoned the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. Some of these believe that a true Christian will in fact pursue a life of holiness. Others believe that you ought to, but that many do not and that this has no effect on their salvation. In my opinion this is a corruption of Baptist teaching–I know Baptists who would disagree with it strongly. And it’s certainly not typical of Protestantism as a whole (ironically, one criticism one can make of Calvinism and other forms of Protestantism is that they lead to legalism and scrupulosity).

Generally speaking, Protestants believe that if you have true faith in Christ it will express itself in your actions. Those who do not believe this are a minority of Protestants as a whole, but they tend to be concentrated in the American South, so if you live there you have probably run into this “sinning religion” a lot (I know I did!).

Also bear in mind that many Protestant traditions don’t teach “eternal security” at all. Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Restorationists, Anabaptists, Lutherans, all believe that someone can cease to persevere and thus lose their relationship with Christ.

Edwin


#11

[quote=jdc1084]I’m a protestant, and this is what I’ve always been taught. Once we become Christians and are in that personal relationship with God, we strive to avoid sin in order to please Him. However, we are human and our sinful nature will get the best of us sometimes. Even a bad thought that pops into your head for a moment is a sin after all. It’d be impossible to be perfect. As a child will disappoint his parents here on earth from time to time, it’s like Javelin said, we’re not going to be disowned for messing up. Although you want to try very hard not to mess up :slight_smile:

If someone claims to be a Christian but lives in the ways of the world and doesn’t care to change, then they’re probably not what they say they are. You know a tree by its fruit. I always like the phrase “If saved, always saved” in place of “Once saved always saved.” :slight_smile:
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So one’s way of life, actions so to speak on earth can affect whether the person is destined for heaven or hell … even though one’s faith is strong? What do you do in order to repent? Is repentence after the initial conversion needed? In the Catholic Church repentance is a cornerstone … it is how we reestablish our connection with Christ because during life we damage it by sin. Believe me … repenting before the Lord is not easy but after … you feel like a new man. I know many, if not all, Protestant/Fundamentalist find this practice unneeded but for us it is a Sacrament … it keeps us alive.


#12

[quote=Contarini]Also bear in mind that many Protestant traditions don’t teach “eternal security” at all. Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Restorationists, Anabaptists, Lutherans, all believe that someone can cease to persevere and thus lose their relationship with Christ.

Edwin
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What in your tradition is used to re-establish the relationship if damaged by sin? Is it formal … like the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the CC or is it personal prayer?


#13

[quote=deb1]This is what I was taught when I was a Protestant, of course not all Protestants share the same believes.

If you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you will have a miraculous occurrence take place in your heart and you will not want to commit any large sins. This does not keep you from committing various small sins.

My brother, who was raised Catholic like me but has since become a southern Baptist once told me he could commit murder and serve his punishment on earth but since he has “accepted the Lord in his heart” he is all set for heaven.

PS: He isn’t planning on committing murder.
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#14

[quote=jdc1084]I’m a protestant, and this is what I’ve always been taught. Once we become Christians and are in that personal relationship with God, we strive to avoid sin in order to please Him. However, we are human and our sinful nature will get the best of us sometimes. Even a bad thought that pops into your head for a moment is a sin after all. It’d be impossible to be perfect. As a child will disappoint his parents here on earth from time to time, it’s like Javelin said, we’re not going to be disowned for messing up. Although you want to try very hard not to mess up :slight_smile:

If someone claims to be a Christian but lives in the ways of the world and doesn’t care to change, then they’re probably not what they say they are. You know a tree by its fruit. I always like the phrase “If saved, always saved” in place of “Once saved always saved.” :slight_smile:
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If it is a “If” saved, how do I know for sure that my act of faith took or for you to know if yours took? I’m sure all people who believe in once saved, always saved believe that theirs took. “I don’t know about anyone else… but I know mine took”.

The minister who many years ago accepted Christ, studied, preached and ministered but is involved in an adulterous affair and dies in a car crash during a liason. Does his congregation still believe he is still saved no matter what (his perseverence failing) or do they then say that his act of faith those many years ago didn’t take even though he fully believed it did?

If either the former or the latter, how can anyone truly know if their own acceptance and faith in Christ took?

Peace.


#15

Hi All
I was brought up by strict father who belong to a Baptist Church that was very calvinist. The Church taught no smoking, no swearing, no drinking , no dancing and no movies, The reason being that the Bible said to refrain from all appearence of evil. Any one of these activitys could lead to some kind of sin. You know, go to a bar and get half snobbered, pick a bar fly and go have sex, you get the picture.
Well I am still a calvinist, I beleive the God saves who he wants to save weather they want too or not and I believe that when you sin that you spoil your your relationship with God and that Holy Spirit will make you aware of your sins. You can renew your relationship by confessing this sin to God in prayer.
However if a person falls into a pattern of habitual sin and there is never any repenance God has no choice but to call that person home. However they will not lose their salvation.

forever Baptist
allischalmers


#16

[quote=allischalmers] I beleive the God saves who he wants to save weather they want too or not and I believe that when you sin that you spoil your your relationship with God and that Holy Spirit will make you aware of your sins. You can renew your relationship by confessing this sin to God in prayer.
However if a person falls into a pattern of habitual sin and there is never any repenance God has no choice but to call that person home. However they will not lose their salvation.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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So God overrides your free will. I did not think he would do that. You have no say so in the matter. What pieces of scripture document this belief.

You are right though in sin spoiling our relationship with God and the importance of repentence during one’s life.

Your last sentence … please post what scriptual references support this. Also this sounds like it does not matter whether you repent or not … where does God’s justice fit into this?

Thanks.


#17

[quote=Elzee]An OSAS friend told me once that while sin ‘displeases’ God nothing she can do can take away his promise of salvation because she has accepted him as her Lord and Savior.

But, when I asked "What does Him being ‘Lord’ mean? Doesn’t it mean you are under his discipline, under his command? If you deliberately and willfully do not follow His commands and commit a sin such as adultery, is He really your ‘Lord’ at that moment? "

She said she’d have to get back to me. That was almost a year ago.
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:thumbsup:

The “sinners prayer” is a prayer of accepting Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior. How strange it is that many who believed that they are “saved” can also believe that there is NO sin that could ever could commit that would damn them to eternity in Hell. “No sin” obviously includes the sin of being unrepentant for committing the unforgivable sin, the sin of never being repentant for any sin, the sin of unrepentant Satan worshiping, the sin of unrepentant apostasy, the sin of unrepenant genocide ….

Where does the Gospel teach that one can have Jesus as his Savior without having Jesus as his Lord? "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46


#18

[quote=Elzee]An OSAS friend told me once that while sin ‘displeases’ God nothing she can do can take away his promise of salvation because she has accepted him as her Lord and Savior.

But, when I asked "What does Him being ‘Lord’ mean? Doesn’t it mean you are under his discipline, under his command? If you deliberately and willfully do not follow His commands and commit a sin such as adultery, is He really your ‘Lord’ at that moment? "

She said she’d have to get back to me. That was almost a year ago.
[/quote]

How can any OSAS person argue with Hebrews?

“26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”

I really don’t understand it :ehh:


#19

Which is just a befuddled Protestant’s way of acknowledging that in his heart he knows there must be objective standards of behavior that the “true Christian” must meet. What those standards are, no one can really know for sure, since Jesus left us with no authority on earth that teaches infallibly on matters of morality. So the Protestant is left to stumble around in the darkness of believing that Christ does not want us to sin, and that Christ also left his would be disciples with no way of knowing what is truly sinful.

Artificial Birth Control, a “large sin” - yes or no? Where is the Protestant supposed to find an answer for this question? The Protestant sects teach one thing to one generation and the opposite thing to another generation. Which generation was taught the truth?


#20

[quote=javelin]From what I understand, the essential belief is that once one claims Christ as Lord and Savior, one is born again into a new life in Christ. Once we are born again, we are His adopted sons and daughters. Since Christ does not lose anyone that is His, once we are part of His family, we can never be “un-adopted”. Being God’s sons and daughters, born to new life in the Holy Spirit, we are inheritor’s of everlasting life. All sins, past, present and future are “paid in full” and have no bearing on our salvation. Though God may be saddened by our sins, He can no more “disinherit” us than any person would willingly abandon their own child.

Thus, salvation is assured.

That, at least, is about how I understand it.

(Quote ends here–I screwed up.)

Hebrews 12:4-8 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin…God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? BUT if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN AND ARE NOT SONS.

Hebrews 5:9 and having been made perfect, He became to all those who OBEY HIM the source of eternal salvation.

Hebrews 12:14-17 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one COMES SHORT of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many BE DEFILED; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who SOLD HIS OWN BIRTHRIGHT for a single meal. For you know that even aferwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was **REJECTED, **for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

2 John 8,9 WATCH YOURSELVES that you might not LOSE what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Any one who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, **DOES NOT HAVE GOD; **THE ONE WHO ABIDES IN THE TEACHING, HE HAS BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON

Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not ERASE HIS HAME from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

These and several other hundred verses show that you cannot live any way you want and be “saved.” I used to believe that as a Baptist, but with years of study, I realized to believe that I would have to toss out most all of the New Testament.

Jesus himself said (Matt. 7:16) "YOU WILL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS."http://forums.catholic.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
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