Since when has turning people off become a goal?

Hold up a second. Let's not paint every CAF person who's had problems with HP as dogmatic or Puritanical. I may have missed some negative posts, but my overall experience has been that some of them raised interesting points, and for the most part, they were quite willing to discuss their differences with dissenting posters.

[quote="jmcrae, post:12, topic:220925"]
That they are choosing to listen to the voices of immature hysteria, while not hearing the Pope or the Bishops, or even the members of their local Catholic parish, shows that they aren't looking for reasons to become Catholic, but rather, they are looking for reasons to say "See? Look! Catholicism is bad!"

[/quote]

Not really. To say that they're CHOOSING to only hear the bad is totally biased.
If you grow up surrounded by contradictory Catholics, then THEY become the majority.
And the good, decent, Catholics? The Pope? What the church teaches?

Becomes a minority.

They think that only a few Catholics actually follow what they teach.

It ALL depends on a persons background and social circle.
You can't say they've just made a choice to dislike the Church, not when they've been surrounded most their lives by bad examples.

And there are a scary amount of bad examples, making themselves known.

[quote="Havard, post:21, topic:220925"]
Hold up a second. Let's not paint every CAF person who's had problems with HP as dogmatic or Puritanical. I may have missed some negative posts, but my overall experience has been that some of them raised interesting points, and for the most part, they were quite willing to discuss their differences with dissenting posters.

[/quote]

I wouldn't paint every person, but it's a stretch to deny that a grand majority of those people haven't presented anything either new or at least original.

And no, I'm afraid from my experience, anti-Potterites were more likely to just post and then cover up their ears. Just say the word and I'll show you a couple of actual posts for proof.

[quote="Havard, post:21, topic:220925"]
Hold up a second. Let's not paint every CAF person who's had problems with HP as dogmatic or Puritanical. I may have missed some negative posts, but my overall experience has been that some of them raised interesting points, and for the most part, they were quite willing to discuss their differences with dissenting posters.

[/quote]

I didn't think they were, from what I read of the opening post.
Infact, they said they DIDN'T want to get into that argument.

Those were just examples, not accusations.

[quote="Lost_Wanderer, post:23, topic:220925"]
I wouldn't paint every person, but it's a stretch to deny that a grand majority of those people haven't presented anything either new or at least original.

And no, I'm afraid from my experience, anti-Potterites were more likely to just post and then cover up their ears. Just say the word and I'll show you a couple of actual posts for proof.

[/quote]

In private messages, sure. Because I do see a disconnect between your feeling on these people and my observations.

[quote="Suni_Moon, post:7, topic:220925"]
I didn't see it first hand, but someone else I know who used to frequent these forums, and left them, because they made her ill, saw someone post about art once...
Apparently this poster said they always thought being an artist was a "dangerous" profession.
They said that if people would stand back and look at it with a real Catholic perspective then they'd understand.

Uh huh. So they say, completely ignoring the whole fact that the Catholic church has SAINTS for artists. I ain't even Catholic and I know that.

[/quote]

Oh my God... Could it be...? Have I found evidence that such careless statements against the arts are actually being read!? 0.0

Goodness, it's true!! I can't believe it! I've actually seen those posts! Man do they tick me off. And I don't say ticked off just cuz I'm a writer (who is a literary kind of artist), I say this because I know the perspective of snotty liberals who actually believe the same thing about us!

Liberal: "What's a conservative like you doing on an art site? Did you know that religion and conservatism are the enemies the arts? I mean art is all about freedom and stuff hurdurr..."

Me: holds back desire to choke out stupid stereotype

However, when I hear a religious person say something like this.

Religious: "The arts are a spiritually dangerous profession. Shun them!"

Me: ARRRRRGHHH!!!!! :banghead:

[quote="Havard, post:25, topic:220925"]
In private messages, sure. Because I do see a disconnect between your feeling on these people and my observations.

[/quote]

Perhaps it's only because we have different perspectives regarding the opposing views. Still, I've already sent you some quotes.

[quote="Lost_Wanderer, post:27, topic:220925"]
Perhaps it's only because we have different perspectives regarding the opposing views. Still, I've already sent you some quotes.

[/quote]

My perspective is that I've read every Harry Potter book, and enjoyed them, but I'm open to hearing criticism if it has a rational basis.

Did anyone make an argument that convinced me? Nah. But I think many were trying, and for the most part the conversations I saw were respectful.

[quote="Havard, post:28, topic:220925"]
Did anyone make an argument that convinced me? Nah. But I think many were trying, and for the most part the conversations I saw were respectful.

[/quote]

I thought we were focusing on the rationality of the whole debate not the civility? True there was flaming, but forgive me if I don't choose to focus on that.

I saw some reason applied, but the weakest part on the side of the anti-HP is the lack of evidence. I think they pointed to some Wiccan groups that claim they’ve gained interest after HP. But there’s been no comprehensive data, no big studies with numbers offered. Which is what people look for in discussions like these.

We can’t blame the anti-HP for there being no studies (they surely have no say in that matter) but the only thing we can ‘blame’ them for at all is holding to opinions that are based upon authorities they respect (in this case, Catholic exorcists.)

The thing I wanted to drive home was that there may misunderstanding on their end with regard to what the exorcists were saying. A lot of those interviews/articles with exorcists that were cited didn’t go into a lot of detail. Although I really don’t know what they meant, I wouldn’t be surprised if the anti-HP statements from some of these priests were more based upon fairly common societal issues than things that are truly unique to HP.

I completely understand what you are saying Lost Wanderer. It is very frustrating to me since I try to understand other people and where they are coming from. Sadly, it is the "fringe" type of people who tend to be the example for the whole group in the popular culture and media. How many times are Muslims painted as being terrorists or close to it? Or the Westboro Baptist Church being used as an example of all Christians? Or anti-HP people, etc? We aren't like that thankfully but most people don't investigate stuff on their own.

Haven't read the entire thread, but I did read the first page of posts and I can't help giving this thread a resounding "AMEN!" Nothing bugs me more than "Catholic" novels that have about the literary merit of the "Left Behind" novels, books that I have tried reading but which ended up ricocheting off the wall because the characters were so trite and spineless and one-sided that I ended up rooting a bit for the bad guys since they actually have some depth -- only to see said bad guys end up just as shallow once they've converted. Or the looks of horror I get from people when I talk about liking anime: God forbid that I should enjoy the product of a country where Catholics form only about 1% of the population. ./sarcasm.

It bugs me that there are anime series that I love but which I can't discuss on Christian anime forums because -- OH NOEZ!!! There are gay characters in it and they're portrayed as good people or just plain regular folks. I had a bit of a heated conversation with a friend over one series that I'm especially fond of, since this person did not approve of the borderline romantic relationship between the two male leads, and yet he had no issue with the fact that the main antagonist is a depraved bisexual. That was irritating, since it gave me the impression this personage thinks that any time gay or bi characters are depicted, that they have to be evil or just nasty. Sure, it's sinful to act on one's inclinations if they run that way, but it doesn't turn a person into some ravening demon or something. Demonizing GLBT characters is just as wrong as demonizing Catholic characters or any other character. It's bad writing at best, and just plain wrong at worst.

It just bugs me that I worship a God Who came to earth as a human being and chose to hang out with the lowest of the low, and yet too many of my fellow Catholics commit the same sin as the Pharisees whom Christ once ranted about calling them a bunch of snakes and a pack of white-painted tombs. If Christ came here for a visit, I have a strong feeling He'd "hang out" with the gays and the punks and the kids with the crazy amounts of tattoos and piercings and every other kind of person that the typical "nice" Catholic person would cross the street to avoid.

[quote="rapunzel77, post:31, topic:220925"]
I completely understand what you are saying Lost Wanderer. It is very frustrating to me since I try to understand other people and where they are coming from. Sadly, it is the "fringe" type of people who tend to be the example for the whole group in the popular culture and media. How many times are Muslims painted as being terrorists or close to it? Or the Westboro Baptist Church being used as an example of all Christians? Or anti-HP people, etc? We aren't like that thankfully but most people don't investigate stuff on their own.

[/quote]

You know what's even more disturbing? It's how these fringe people actually want to be the face of Catholicism. That's what I've been saying really. They want to turn people off. They say things they know will cause people to reject even when those things come at the price of reason, charity, and even Church doctrine.

Their justification? To 'separate the goat from the sheep' for the 'road to Heaven is narrow' or some other twisted excuse to keep our numbers small.

I find it bizarre. My father is deeply devout and was for a long time a daily Communicant and is a big supporter of groups like SPUC (Society for the protection of unborn children) however I cannot remember one time in my childhood when If I brought a comic or fantasy novel home to read it created the furore we see at times here. At best he might say it wasn't his cup of tea or look at some of them and criticise the art style. My mum would actually occasionally read some of them if something took her fancy. Oddly enough of all things Watchmen took her fancy I recall when it was first realeased.

I have a huge collection of comics still in the house amassed from my teens, hundreds of fantasy novels and sci-novels and lots of related stuff. It's simply a matter of taste I've always thought. I see no fundamental disconnect between Catholic and say like Lost Wanderer playing Japanese console RPGs or like me been very fond of comicbooks and fantasy literature.

[quote="rapunzel77, post:31, topic:220925"]
I completely understand what you are saying Lost Wanderer. It is very frustrating to me since I try to understand other people and where they are coming from. Sadly, it is the "fringe" type of people who tend to be the example for the whole group in the popular culture and media. How many times are Muslims painted as being terrorists or close to it? Or the Westboro Baptist Church being used as an example of all Christians? Or anti-HP people, etc? We aren't like that thankfully but most people don't investigate stuff on their own.

[/quote]

Dear rapunzel77,

Cordial greetings.

Those who feel compelled to critique the Potter series in highly negative terms do not belong to the lunatic fringe of anti-Potter people. This is rather emotive language to describe reflective Catholics such as myself who are simply voicing concerns about a series of books which they feel are morally ambiguous and which have as their *central *dynamic the world of magic and sorcery - activities that God calls "an abomination" in Sacred Scripture and which the Church denounces in the strongest terms. We are only saying that Catholics ought to think carefully before giving these books to our impressionable children. We would do likewise with toys that glorify cruelty and violence, or with magazines that display sexuality in a graphic manner. Thus why should we not raise similar cautions respecting a set of books which advocate something as equally as dangerous to a child's spiritual well-being? It would be a dereliction of moral responsibility to hold our peace and keep silent. This is my chief reason for engaging in discussion about the Potter series of books and not out of some morbid love of controversy.

It is important that we do not polarise men on either side of the debate as being rational, culture-affirming pro-Potterites or irrational anti-Potterites who's "warped opinions' are conveying the impression that Catholics are overly prissy or world-denying. Sadly, much of the unpleasant rehetoric and snide remarks emanate from the pro-Potter camp (which given that they are the majority viewpoint is somewhat strange) who in an attempt to descredit and silence the opposition, frequently lump anti-Potterites with wide-eyed fundamentalists. Thus people are led to wrongly believe that anyone who dares to appraise the Potter books negatively must ipso facto be some extreme fanatic who has taken leave of their senses. None of the thoughtful critiques of the Potter series that I have read have advocated bombing Hollywood or burning Potter books in streets of London or New York and then goose-stepping around the pile. No, there is no need to resort to this sort of level or to say, as some have, that anti-potter sentiment is a sort of Taliban mentality that has emerged within Catholicism. This accusation is wildly absurd and inaccurate and would be merely risible if it were not so inflammatory.

We in the anti-potter camp are saying that Catholics must exercise discernment in the whole matter of the arts and literature, indeed in any sphere of interaction with the world. We need to ensure that we or our precious children are not assimilating culturally unhealthy and intrinsically anti-christian reading material that could prove dangerous and impede their pursuit of holiness. No one is saying that art must be simplistic morality plays. Great art can surely be created without any overtly Christian messages, but it is right to ask if the Potter series makes it easier for children to reach Paradise or more difficult.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Pretty soon I wanted to smoke, and asked the widow to let me. But she wouldn’t. She said it was a mean practice and wasn’t clean, and I must try not to do it anymore....And she took snuff too; of course that was all right, because she done it herself. - Huckleberry Finn

[quote="Portrait, post:35, topic:220925"]

We in the anti-potter camp are saying that Catholics must exercise discernment in the whole matter of the arts and literature, indeed in any sphere of interaction with the world. We need to ensure that we or our precious children are not assimilating culturally unhealthy and intrinsically anti-christian reading material that could prove dangerous and impede their pursuit of holiness. No one is saying that art must be simplistic morality plays. Great art can surely be created without any overtly Christian messages, but it is right to ask if the Potter series makes it easier for children to reach Paradise or more difficult.

[/quote]

Bear in mind that the Harry Potter series is no more about witchcraft than Star Wars is about outer space, or Narnia is about talking animals. These devices are simply used to remove the action from out of "real life" and into a world of fantasy where the battle between good and evil can be waged without the laws of physics getting in the way of the action. :)

Besides which, I always thought that Hogwarts reminded me of Art School - there are more similarities than differences. :p

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