"Smoking Gun" Found: Catholic Church False


#1

A “Bible Only” Baptist friend of mine has told me of two “Smoking Guns”. The first and most important is changing the 10 Commandments. If the Church is willing to change the word of God,teach error and lie about it they can’t be trusted in it’s other teaching. Second, if the Apocrypha books are the word of God how come the two stories of “Daniel in the lions den” are not the same? We can call into question all the Apocrypha if the Church allows error even in passages of the Bible and not trust it’s teaching in other areas.


#2

The Ten Commandments are just a memory aid. Open up your Catholic bible and show him that, contrary to his assertion, the Church does not teach error and lie, but has the exact scriptures from which the Ten Commandments are taken.

And then ask him if he really thinks coveting one’s wife is equivalent to coveting his lawn mower.


#3

The Ten Commandments are so-called in tradition, a tradition that is far younger than the commandments themselves. Even experts do not fully agree on how to parse the commandments. What is important is what is written in Scripture, not what yhour friend tries to make of it thousands of years after it was written.

Ask your friend to show you his King James Bible and read Genesis to him. Note there are two storys of the creation.
Genesis 1,25-28:

[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2,4-7

[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
[6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There are also two stories of Noah and the Ark – in one, he loads the animals, two-by-two. Then a few lines farther on, he loads seven pairs of each clean animal and one pair of each unclean kind.

There are three stories of Abraham claiming Sarah is his sister, not his wife – and in the third story, it’s Jacob who makes that mistake!!

So we found three smoking guns in the first book of the King James bible.:smiley:


#4

The Ten Commandments are so-called in tradition, a tradition that is far younger than the commandments themselves. Even experts do not fully agree on how to parse the commandments. What is important is what is written in Scripture, not what yhour friend tries to make of it thousands of years after it was written.

Ask your friend to show you his King James Bible and read Genesis to him. Note there are two storys of the creation.
Genesis 1,25-28:

[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2,4-7

[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
[6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There are also two stories of Noah and the Ark – in one, he loads the animals, two-by-two. Then a few lines farther on, he loads seven pairs of each clean animal and one pair of each unclean kind.

There are three stories of Abraham claiming Sarah is his sister, not his wife – and in the third story, it’s Jacob who makes that mistake!!

So we found three smoking guns in the first book of the King James bible.:smiley:


#5

The problem is, if you ask certain Protestants if coveting a wife is different than coveting a donkey, they will say, “No difference.”

All of the groups of evangelical Protestants that I was associated with over the years said that no sin was greater or less than another sin. I remember someone gave us the example once that stealing a pencil from work is no different than raping and murdering a child.

So don’t ask the question about coveting the wife vs. the donkey, because you might not like the answer and you will probably want to punch the Protestant in the face. (I wanted to when they gave the pencil vs. child rape/murder example.)


#6

Amen:thumbsup:


#7

When I asked one that, he said, “Depends on which one is prettier.”:eek:


#8

I’d say the smoking gun that the Catholic Church is the true Church is the Eucharist. The Bible clearly states what the Eucharist is but I know of no Protestant denomination that recognizes the true presance of Christ in the Host.


#9

I thought the Anglicans and Lutherans did. Do Coptic Christians?
Just curious?


#10

Yes, I have run across evangelical Protestans who claim this. And yet, how many of them would say that stealing a pencil from work was proof that the person wasn’t really saved? As compared to how many would say that raping and murdering a child was proof that the person wasn’t really saved?


#11

They really do not as they do not treat it as Christ is present. Granted there are plenty of Catholics who do not either, but faithful, orthodox Catholics who follow Catholic teaching realize that Jesus is present, so He requires adoration.

I am not so sure about Coptic Christians.

In Christ
Scylla


#12

The Copts are Orthodox, have valid Apostolic Succession, and have no dogmas unacceptable to the Catholic Church.


#13

It’s a good question, VociMike,

What my churches would have said is that if the person was not making a habit out of sinning, i.e., raping and murdering children regularly, they are still saved. It’s when you continue in sin that you are considered “never a Christian to begin with.” If it was just a one-time crime of passion and you are repentant, you’re fine.

They will point to verses in Romans 8 (nothing shall separate us from the Love of God), etc.

I’m NOT kidding, everyone! Right now on one of the Protestant forums that I visit, there is a thread on “Can you lose your salvation?” A few brave souls (and one Catholic gentleman) are arguing that yes, you can, but most of the Protestants, even the scholarly ones, are saying, “No, Christ’s blood is sufficient to forgive all our sins, past, present and future. No one can snatch us away from God, not even ourself.” I would link you to the thread, but I think that’s against the CAF rules.


#14

Not to mention FOUR gospels, which at times do not perfectly agree.

One fundamental rule for arguing apologetics would seem to be that any argument you make against another denomination really ought to be tested on your own first, lest you lose all credibility.


#15

Well, the Bible pretty clearly okays drinking and dancing, which Baptists abhor. The Pentecostal Church I used to attend routinely altered the references to wine to juice, which was completely ridiculous given grape juice didn’t even exist pre-refrigeration and certainly didn’t in the bloody desert.

I get the idea that if they felt they could get away with eliminating the Cana miracle altogether, they would.


#16

This is what I call “garage sale theology” – the assumption that the Bible was just discovered (perhaps at a garage sale) and no one has ever read it before. You see these characters running around with their hair on fire, anxious to show us what they just discovered – and never stopping to think about what it means for their religions.:smiley:


#17

Ok just to clarify a few things first off there are several types of Baptists NOT ALL abhor dancing nor drinking, you find that more with the “southern” Baptists lets not forget owning things such as campers ,etc and associating with “sinners” at movie theaters etc ok thats done now

moving on the the term "juice"Grape juice has existed at least a tad longer than Grape wine, why is this simple they smashed grapes to do what? get the juice out, when does that juice become wine and have an alcohol content? after fermentation, how long the process takes varies But its still starts out as juice
refridgeration helped slow down and delat fermentation and now we have chemicals to do that as well…so in theory its possible they could have easily been drinking “juice” at the last supper if the grapes had been smashed that day…But many would still refer to it as wine,

kind of like in todays world all PWC ( personal watercrafts) depending on what brand was owned first all become that
example many call them all jet skis even though a jet ski is a kawasaki
some call them all wave runners even though thats a yamaha


#18

Ask him to show you where in the Bible that they are numberd as he has them rather than the way the rest of Christianity, including the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic and all of the Apostolic Churches, number them. Don’t let him skirt the issue. He is making a false claim that he cannot back up. Make him prove, using “scripture alone” that the numbers he uses are more valid than the numbering used by 3/4 of all Christians.


#19

This link might be helpful: The Ten Commandments

Also this link from the CCC might be helpful. It list the 10 commandments with the Bible verses.

Don’t people read the Bible?

I think that this quote from a Jewish site sums things up pretty good for me:

The “Ten Commandments” are part of the common religious heritage of Judaism, Catholicism and Protestantism, part of the sacred scriptures that we all share, and should not be controversial.

Source:jewfaq.org/10.htm

In Genesis there are 2 different accounts for creation. So what’s his point? If Genesis is the word of God why is there 2 different stories for creation?


#20

The Catholic numbering of the 10 commandments is Augustinian, 4th c, and the Protestant formulation is King James formulation, 17 c, so why did THEY change it 13 centuries later?

When they’re trying to prove it from the Bible, remind them that they have to look both in Exodus and Deuteronomy, because it’s listed twice.

And don’t use verse numbering as a justification, because that’s a “medieval Catholic invention.”

Then ask why the Jewish 10 commandments are different than the Christian ones, and wouldn’t they know best because they are the direct recipients?

And does it matter at all anyway, because didn’t Paul trash it as a “work of the law”?

OSAS therefore it doesn’t matter what you do?

projectmoses.com


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