So I've been told I am a heretic and excommunicated


#1

I’m going to make this short and sweet these are the two supposed heretical views I hold.

  1. The essential structure of the Church can change and has changed.

An example being the adding of Priests when it was just deacons and there bishops. The founding of monastic traditions and so on.

  1. The Church’s dogmas continually evolve over time so that they can change from meaning one thing to meaning another. Again this has happened although all sorts of verbal gymnastics are employed to keep from admitting it.

This can be seen in things like the filioque statement being OPTIONAL for Eastern Catholics and that if the Orthodox come into communion with the Pope they are free to reject it.


The excommunicated part is because I refuse to reject either of these views.

So what gives?


#2

How does truth change? The ten commandments and teachings of the church remain true forever. We don’t change the rules just because they don’t suit us. We either conform to what is forever right or reap the consequences of our rebellion. You may change what you believe but God remains the same.


#3

Well as I said we are told one truth is optional for Eastern Catholics and how can truth be optional?

Then you have how No Salvation Outside the Church has gone from you aint Catholic your burning no exceptions.

To very rare exceptions

TO:

Basically any Christian and most Jews are okay.

Again the Church wont say this directly lots of verbal gymnastics and stuff about a fuller understanding…

But you can call a spade a shovel all you wont it doesn’t change the fact a spade is a spade.


#4

**

  1. The essential structure of the Church can change and has changed.

An example being the adding of Priests when it was just deacons and there bishops…**

While yes, mostly deacons and bishops are mentioned in the Bible, so are presbyeters. The very word “priest” is a contraction of “presbyter” through the Middle English form “prester.” (Compare the French “pretre”.)

** The founding of monastic traditions and so on.**

Ascetics who lived “in caves and caverns of the earth, of whom the world was not worthy” are mentioned in Hebrews 11. This provides the prototype of monastic life.


#5

i don’t understand:

  1. we’ve always had priests: as a matter of fact, the bishop and the deacon have the same sacrament, the bishop only has it “more fully” than the deacon. adding consecrated people doesn’t seem like a change in the sacramental or hierarchical structure to me, they are simply following a rule of life, all of which are Catholic.
  • your assertation that the church has changed intrinsically makes no sense to me baised on theology or history or philosophy. this structure has not changed and cannot change. when it comes to the essence of the structure, there’s not really a whole lot there other than sacramental and ecclesiatical authority. what’s to change?
  1. you are basically decribing relativism which has been called by pius 9th, “the sum of all heresies”. it is a metalinguistic heresy that changes the meaning behind the words instead of the words themselves. (note that the filioque does not fall into this catagory). in this heresy it is like if you were to say, “in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit”, but mean “in the name of tom **** and harry” I’m not sure if you are subscribing to this entirely though.
    -also, the church dogma doesn’t evolve from one teaching to another- it deepens in understanding as time goes by. for example, trent defines transubstantiation in the 1500’s, but if you look throughout the history of the church you will find that we’ve always believed it but now put a name to it. the same is true of the filioque- we’ve always believed it (so did the orthodox churches) and it was only inserted into the creed to clarify what we believe during a herertical crisis. our teachings don’t change, they deepen- the way knowledge of a loved one deepens over time.

it seems to me that you are more confused than you are heretical. the things you’re saying are wrong, but i can see why you think that way when you are displaying a cursory knowledge of the faith. first try to understand “why” and then decied if you want to be a heretic. if you are going to lable yourself by letting others lable you, at least know when the lable means and why its on your forehead.


#6

sorry i missed this part before-
we still believe that there is no salvation outside of the catholic church, but this statement has been grossly misunderstood and misused, as you are doing now. tertullian meant, and vatican 2 affirmed that one must be part of the mystical body of christ to enter in to heaven. the church is the physical representation of the mystical body of christ on earth, and so a person must be connected somehow to it either by a christian baptism, desire, or some other grace that God gives that enables man to be connected to Him. there’s mre to it than i can put down here. read vatican 2. the church is only clarifying what it always believed because people, like you, have misunderstood it and misused it.


#7

Has anyone with any authority told you that you’re excommunicated?


#8

What exactly belongs in this forum? Plenty!
[LIST=1]
*]Our daily walk with Christ (why/how/where to be more spiritual)
*]Questions about Prayer / Devotionals
*]Saints
*]Sacramentals (devotions and practices, including fasting and abstinence)
*]Apostolates (preaching, retreats, hospital, military, or prison chaplaincy, counseling, working with youth, married couples or the elderly, etc)[/LIST]


#9

Well the structure of the church has changed-but not radically.As it grew it had to. from house Churches to formal churches.Cardinals didn’t arrive until much later- Evolution of dogma does exist.Starts out as a Tradition -Assumption is an example. Long a tradition but didn’t become dogma until much later


#10

I’m astounded that your Bishop made the time to follow you around and discover these things about you, and then excommunicate you.


#11

The very reason that Jesus did NOT invent the printing press and issue a flyer with His teachings…instead HE left a magic chair…of sorts,in Rome,and whomever sits in that chair at any given time cant commit sin as we know it for Jesus promised that His church would never fold …makes sense…or else Jesus would have t still be around…Sure He had all male apostles at first…but later when schools,hospitals etc were needed…sisters or nuns were invented by the same church to full the need. The US supsreme court is a good example…in the Dred Scott dec.they declared that an escaped slave from the lovely south (democrat party controlled to this day) escapes to up north…he is still a slave and must be returned at all costs…this was horrible…the US Supreme court is a court of men and woman…and whatever…Ginsberg,an offical in the ACLU,confirmed by McCain…is on it so figure that one out!..anyway no one is forced to belong to the RCC…if you cant abide by its bylaws leave…Join Pat Robertsons church…he endorsed americas mayor,Guiliani for president…is that more to your choosing??? Yes the supremes are just a court of humans with no spiritual guidance…but the church of Rome is superior to that.thats why it was the first to condemn Communism and Nazism in 1937-8 while all the rest of the world just gushed at their uniforms…FDR recognizing the soviet murderers in 1933 and ignoring the holocaust the entire time. If you cant accept the teachings of the RCC…leave and may Peace be with you…


#12

Where have you been told this? By your own Bishop? By CAF Posters? In your parish by parish members?


#13

Sir ; do you still go to Church? Are you partaking of the Sacraments? These statements you have made are just an opinion on the forum. If you are in leadership then you would be in trouble.


#14

You’re a little off on the filioque. Eastern Catholics can reject it in favor of another formula (from the Father through the Son) which has its basis in both Latin and Greek patristic writing. So Eastern Catholics are free to substitute from the Father through the Son if they wish. The two statements are not contradictions, and I recommend reading up on it if you’re still uneasy about the differences (especially if you believe the Church frequently uses verbal gymnastics).


#15

I’d like to know myself. I thought excommunication was an elaborate process involving bishops and decrees and ecclesiastic courts and all that. :confused:


#16

Actually right now my Diocese is Bishopless

??? They can what now? You just repeated the same formula from the Father through the Son both times. What is the statement they can substitute?

Well I’ve made them to others. As for the Sacraments I do know that at the least these views equal a mortal sin so no communion for me, and as I can’t just up and renounce them that means I can’t go through confession.

Some things are automatic abortion, hearsay and apostasy. Since I am holding heretical views and wont renounce them I am thus out.

Or so I’ve been told thus I am out.


#17

In regard to the Filioque - the Latin Creed’s statement is ‘proceeds from the Father AND the Son’. Eastern Catholics can say ‘proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son’. The two statements aren’t incompatible with each other, any more than Latin Mass and Eastern Divine Liturgy are incompatible, which is why both options are permitted.

As for the above statement - who told you this? Have you discussed your views with a priest or someone who has at least a modicum of teaching authority rather than just taking the word of anonymous posters on a forum? There may be circumstances in your case that we aren’t aware of but which your priest would be, that can make a difference to your situation.


#18

Quoting Lily M:

As for the above statement - who told you this? Have you discussed your views with a priest or someone who has at least a modicum of teaching authority rather than just taking the word of anonymous posters on a forum? There may be circumstances in your case that we aren’t aware of but which your priest would be, that can make a difference to your situation.

:thumbsup: Good advice…Always best to check things out with a priest…


#19

By whom?

Until you hear it from a Bishop, or from your Confessor, you’re still in.


#20

Except, I believe for abortion (direct participation) or assaulting a priest. I believe those excommunications are automatic.

God Bless


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