Genesis ch3 v15 is it Jesus or Mary doing the crushing?
If you look at the Hebrew, ה֚וּא is translated as He/Him/Himself/That
Only 1 time do I see it referring to “she” and it’s not in Genesis 3:15
I think those saying it’s Mary are likely looking at the Septuagint or something.
Seems as if the real Hebrew meaning has gotten lost along the way somehow.
…though I am Catholic (cradle), I still have problems with some of the attributes of the Faith… I think it is quite clear from Genesis 3:15 that the Battle is between Satan, God and man; that Eve’s Offspring (Seed) will crush Satan’s (the Ancient Serpent) head–the Seed is Christ; yet, through some sort of transference, the Virgin has been credited with it as well.
I’m afraid it is one of those things (as your chosen screen name) where people seek a deeper meaning and understanding… and tend to err on the side of inclusion.
Funny I was just reading this article from the Catholic Gentleman on Why the Devil Hates the Blessed Virgin So Much. It talks about this very topic.
Hope it gives you some insight…
The Mystical City of God: Life of the Virgin Mother of God, manifested to Sister Mary of Jesus of Agreda:
The dragon in agonizing efforts to escape,
said : O Woman, give me leave to hurl myself into hell,
for I cannot bear thy presence, nor will I ever venture to
come before Thee as long as Thou livest upon this world.
Thou hast conquered, O Woman, Thou hast conquered,
and I acknowledge thy power in Him who has made
Thee his Mother. Omnipotent God, chastise us Thyself,
since we cannot resist Thee
but do not send thy punishments
through a Woman of a nature so inferior to ours.
Her charity consumes us, her humility crushes us, and
She is in all things a living manifestation of thy mercy
for men. This is a torment surpassing many others.
Assist me, ye demons! But alas, what can our united
efforts avail against this Woman, since all our power
cannot ever deliver us from her presence until She her
self casts us forth? O foolish children of Adam, who
follow me, forsaking life for the sake of death, truth or
falsehood? What absurdity and insanity
is yours, (so in despair I must confess), since you have in your midst
and belonging to your own nature the incarnate Word
and this Woman ? Greater is your ingratitude than mine
and this Woman forces me to confess the truths, which
I abhor with all my heart. Cursed be my resolve to
persecute this Daughter of Adam, who so torments and
This is like asking who is the light of the world ? Jesus or the Apostles ?
Matthew 5:14** “You are the light of the world”
John 9:5 “I am the light of the world”
Statues of Mary have Her standing on the serpent. I thought She already has crushed his head. I thought, in eternity, She already has, but we’re still stuck in the here and now, dying to get out, in more ways than one.
It’s perfect Karma for Devil, by a woman he brought down Adam, and now by a woman he is brought down.
The Virgin is not Divine; she never was–hence she could not have acted in eternity; the Seed, Christ, is Divine and Eternal… it is this understanding that is transferred to her: through her Son the Virgin is seen as crushing the head of the Ancient Serpent.
…as for the seeming conundrum of our (Believers’) existence, I can only sympathize with you as I too experience my life, in all its turmoil and limitations; yet, I can only surmise that the Day of Judgment is not yet here:
[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]3 Knowing this first, that in the last days there shall come deceitful scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 Saying: Where is his promise or his coming? for since the time that the fathers slept, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they are wilfully ignorant of, that the heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God. 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men. 8 But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance. 10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up. 11 Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness?
(2 St. Peter 3:3-11)
What is being stressed in Scriptures is not that we should worry about a timescale but about Christ’s Promise and about being Christ’s Witnesses.
St. Paul put’s it this way:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. 28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us? 32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things? 33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword? 36 (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) 37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
…our Strength is Hidden in Christ, as is our Hope, Eternal Salvation!
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed:** she shall crush thy head**, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
JESUS through MARY
Techno2000, we don’t believe in karma
Lol, I know that it’s just an expression.
It’s easy to understand, she does damage to Hell by her intercession with Jesus, and stopping the Devil from claiming soul that should have belonged to him.
I understand that you’ve quoted DR, a Catholic Bible, yet other Catholic Bibles do not hold the same wordings:
[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]3:15 I will make you enemies of each other: you and the woman, your offspring and **her offspring. It will crush your head **
and you will strike its heel’. (JB: bibledoctrine.us/bible/)
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Genesis 3:15: vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P5.HTM)
I cannot argue for the definitive translation… yet, it could be that the DRV took liberties in attempting to place the Virgin in correlation to Satan’s demise.
…actually, the other way around: the Virgin Mary, through Jesus!
YEP [THAT’S WHAT I MEANT TO SAY:blush:]
THANKS for the correction!