Society of the Virgin Mary?


#1

Does anyone know what the deal is with these guys?

svmpriests.us/index.htm

A local parish offers a TLM celebrated by one of their priests, but I’m not entirely sure its valid… let alone approved by the Church.


#2

I did a search on them using 3 different engines and came up with very little other than their webpage and that of St. Basil’s, their church. Their Bishop seems to be validly ordained, but it seems they are a similar position to the SSPX. They seem rather defensive about their position. On the St. Basil’s webpage they state they don’t have to prove anything to anyone, and if you have any doubts, stay away from their church and don’t involve yourself in their ministry. I thought that was a rather strange thing to say.

My impression is that they are closer to the SSPX than the FSSP, and are not in union with Rome. They make no claim either way, as far as I read. But they spent a lot of time on their website defending the validity of the ordination of their Bishop. Why do they need a different Bishop than the one in their Diocese? The FSSP parish in my area is considered part of my Diocese.

Considering all this, I’d be a little leery.


#3

Hi

I have to admit that a very quick look at their website did not raise any red flags with me, although they do, as has been said, make a big deal about their bishop and post a number for the chancery which is odd if it is a different number than everyone else’s chancery. They also ask prayers for the Pope, so there you go.

Call the chancery office for your diocese and ask them.


#4

According to their website, Bp. Taylor was ordained by C. David Luther.

Luther is an Old Catholic bishop.

He is listed on a site which describes a Marryin’ Sam kind of ministry.

www.weddingpriestnohassle.com/

What does this tell you?


#5

I think if you go back & reread all the pages it pretty much answers your question. They are defending that bishop and saying that the ordinations are done for the greater good, they are using the same line of reasoning or argument that the SSPX have recently used to justify the recent ordinations of priests…saying it’s an emergency. They just talk in circles…makes me wonder hmmm…whom do they serve?


#6

Sounds like a cult.
They are down here in WV, Beckley (about two hours from me).
Its bothersome that some use our Lady’s name for rebellion against the Church they claim to serve.


#7

Seems cool.


#8

The Costa line is the same line the Society of Pope Leo XIII
splxiii.org/default.html

Costa was a Brazilian Catholic Bishop that ended up founding a schismatic (pardon the term…not meant to offend) Church that has about 2-3 million members Worldwide. Some of the Bishops consecrated by those descended from these lines split and as has been pointed out in another thread formed a number of different groups.

The Costa line seems generally valid in that the ICAB communion seems to have ensured that not only are their Bishops valid but they use Roman Catholic ordination rites and so on. That of course may mean valid but illicit and while Canon law allows Roman Catholics to seek sacraments from valid churches (eg PNCC) in an emergency it is NOT expected to be normative.

Why all the fragmentation (not as prolific as among Protestants)? Why can’t for instance the Society of Pius X and this group get together? I can see why the Society of Pope Leo XIII can’t because although they use a Latin Mass they have married clergy.


#9

Sounds like the Society of the Virgin Mary has very good intentions, an impression I have from visiting their site. I’m really glad to have an FSSP priest saying Mass at my church. I found out that our Bishop even called the FSSP and asked them to send a priest to our diocese.

-sparkie:)


#10

Bishop Patrick Taylor was originally an Orthodox priest and later converted to Roman Catholicism in life. He wouldn’t need to be conditionally ordained since his priesthood comes directly from the schismatic Eastern Orthodox Church. He offers the traditional Latin Mass and identifies himself as a traditional Roman Catholic like the Society of St. Pius X and the CMRI.

Many traditional Catholics doubt Bishop Taylor’s validity as a bishop because it comes “dubious lines”.

There were 3 bishops who ordained Bishop Taylor as a bishop:

Bishop Michael Boucher (principal consecrator): Ordained by Bishop Andre Barbeau, a former classmate of Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, the prefect for the Pontifical Council of the Family. Barbeau left the Roman Catholic Church in 1968 and allowed himself to be ordained a bishop by Old Catholics in Canada. He later established a schismatic sect called the “Charismatic Catholic Church in Canada”. Barbeau used a French-translation of the 1962 Roman Pontifical to ordain his bishops and priests. In 2002, the late Cardinal Edouard Gagnon personally investigated Barbeau’s line as valid because it comes Old Catholic prelate, Bishop Arnold Matthew Harris.

Bishop Denis Michel Garrison: Garrison served as co-consecrator. An Orthodox bishop, his line comes Archbishop Walter Myron Propheta, the Orthodox bishop of New York. Propheta was a friend J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI and a personal contemporary of Cardinal Francis Spellman and his successor, Cardinal Terrence Cooke. Cardinal Spellman recognized Archbishop Propheta’s episcopacy as valid and hence this extends to Bishop Denis Michel Garrison.

Bishop Paul Dolan: Dolan served as co-consecrator. He’s an Orthodox bishop and was ordained in the episcopacy by Garrison.

Bishop Taylor carries a Duarte Costa line because Denis Michel Garrison’s lineage had co-consecrators who were of the Duare Costa lineage. However, a great majority of the bishops in Garrison’s lineage are Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox.


#11

I'm wondering about Bp. Taylor being an Orthodox priest who converted, with the implication that he still retained not only his priesthood, but kept functioning as a priest.

I thought that was difficult if not impossible to do. And, in fact, that there are canonical rules that make it so.

Can anyone shed some light on this?


#12

[quote="Jsmith17, post:1, topic:157588"]
Does anyone know what the deal is with these guys?

svmpriests.us/index.htm

A local parish offers a TLM celebrated by one of their priests, but I'm not entirely sure its valid... let alone approved by the Church.

[/quote]

Let me make a few statements to clear things up, sometimes you need different perspectives to shed new light on the situation.

The Catholic Church has dominion over the nations which are judaic, didn't i make that clear enough? The people of the tribe of DAN, who do not obey you in the nations which are judaism, will die, if you recieve them, in your churches the portion of them which recieve you will live, during the RAPTURE period. Do not recieve many foreign members, and neglect your flock. From which of the wives of jacob, did he give to esau? that is your command.

Mercy, and life the nations know not, but my law the nations will know, the law of NEWLIFE is for your benefit, and the separation of the son of perdition (the heathen).

Thats a different way of observing the situation, anyway. You will have to take that direction, the nations will see to it ;)


#13

I can't find much information that doesn't prove a dubious background for the Society of the Virgin Mary.

For one, the archbishop who consecrated bishop Patrick Taylor doesn't seem to have any legitimate lines to Rome or any thread of the Roman Catholic Church. :eek:

Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison (denisgarrison.info/)

Look at the lines of authority -- it all arises out of a certainly "non-Roman Catholic" line who call themselves "Charismatic Catholics." If that doesn't send up a red flag among the faithful who know anything about the Roman Catholic Church (and yes, well beyond farther than Vatican II), I don't know what would cry "rotten in Denmark!"

For example, as taken from the website reference above:
"In 1993, at Saint Jude Archepiscopal Chapel (a parish of the Catholic Charismatic Church) in Gorham, New Hampshire, on November 20, 1993, Archbishop Denis Garrison and Abp. Paul Vincent Dolan assisted Abp. Michael (J. Paul A. Boucher, D.D.), the Archbishop of New England of the Catholic Charismatic Church, in consecrating Patrick C. Taylor as the Bishop and Ordinary of the Society of the Virgin Mary, a Community of Traditional Roman Catholic Priests."

In my interpretation, that is like me (a layman) going out to buy a church building, get some vestments, altar and candles and reciting the Latin aloud under the guise of being a legitimately ordained Roman Catholic priest. Mind you, succession from Peter and the Apostles is central to the Roman Catholic faith (One, True, Holy, Apostolic).

Unless someone else can provide information that proves any of these Charismatic Catholics have someone reentered the Roman Catholic faith through legitimate baptism, confirmation, holy orders, etc., there's no way you can say the Society of the Virgin Mary are real Catholics who can say Mass in the eyes of God.

Members of the Roman Catholic Church cannot attend Greek rite or other eastern sects' services. As one poster already mentioned, the Eastern Orthodox churches remain in schism. Anyone who had schism (ie. sacraments from the schismatic arm) has to have explicit authorization from Rome or the "conditional ordination" so that no older services are still done -- but it's the Latin Mass exclusively thereforward... (arguably the same of SSPX priests -- you can't still say Novus Ordo stuff and the traditional, perfect Mass).

I'd love to be proven differently -- if such solid info exists. :(


#14

Roman Catholic *can receive Holy Communion *(other than the Catholic Church) only in the Orthodox Church (Greek and Eastern?) as they have not completely severed their ties with the Roman Catholic Church and believe the Bread and Wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as the Roman Catholic Church does. In the Protestant faith, the Bread and Wine are believed to be symbolic only, that is, the bread and wine remain just that. This is why a Protestant (one who protests, in this case protests the belief that the Bread and Wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ) cannot receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. Roman Catholics take literally what Christ said (commanded) at the last supper, which is “Take this all of you and eat it, this IS my Body”. When supper was ended He took the cup, gave thanks, and said “take this all of you and drink it. This IS the cup of my Blood, the Blood of the new and ever lasting covenant which shall be given up for you and for all for the forgiveness of sins”. “DO THIS IM MEMORY OF ME”. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world; happy are us who are called to His Supper. Remember that the word “Catholic” means “universal” (meaning for everyone); it is not so much a name as it is a title. Christ told Peter that he was the foundation upon which He will build His Church; Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic Church and through apostolic succession, the Papacy has been handed down throughout the centuries.


#15

All The bishops were also successors of the apostles The doctrine was formulated in the second century in the first of the three senses given by Ramsey, originally as a response to Gnostic claims of having received secret teaching from Christ or the apostles; it emphasised the public[10] manner in which the apostles had passed on authentic teaching to those whom they entrusted with the care of the churches they founded and that these in turn had passed it on to their successors.[2][11][12]| deadurl= no}}[13]

The Patriarchate of Antioch (Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syriac Catholic Church, Maronite Patriarch of Antioch and the Whole Levant) claims unbroken succession to the Throne of Saint Peter.[14]

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem claims to have been founded by Saint James the Just.[15]

The Armenian Apostolic Church, based at Etchmiadzin, claims to have been founded by Saints Bartholomew and Jude.[16]

The following bodies claim to have been founded by Saint Thomas the Apostle: the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, originating in or around Mesopotamia,[17], and churches based in Kerala, India having Syriac roots and generically known as the Saint Thomas Christians: the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the [Syro-Malankara Catholic Church]], the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church[18], and the Mar Thoma Syrian Church.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church claims founding by Saint Philip the Evangelist.[19]

The Orthodox Church of Cyprus, based at New Justiana (Erdek), claims to have been founded by the apostles Saints Paul and Barnabas[20]

The Russian Orthodox Church claims a connection with Saint Andrew, who is said to have visited the area where the city of Kiev later aros
In Roman Catholic theology, the doctrine of apostolic succession states that Christ gave the full sacramental authority of the Church to the Twelve Apostles in the sacrament of Holy Orders, making them the first bishops. By conferring the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders on the apostles, they were given the authority to confer the sacrament of Holy Orders on others, thus consecrating more bishops in a direct lineage that can trace its origin back to the Twelve Apostles and Christ. This direct succession of bishops from the apostles to the present day bishops is referred to as apostolic succession. Papal primacy is different though related to apostolic succession as described here. The Catholic Church has traditionally claimed a unique leadership role for the Apostle Peter, believed to have been named by Jesus as head of the Apostles and as a focus of their unity, who became the first Bishop of Rome,

Therefore as long as Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison has one vaild line of Apostolic succession any one He lays hands on are Valid Bishops and can give All The Sacraments of the Catholic Church


#16

O by the way gusolie going out to buy a church building and impersonating A Priest or Any Clergy a Federal Felony check Law Books or you will be in prion for a long time.


#17

Just to add to this thread...

ICAB have been declared schismatic, and heretic, and their orders are suspicious at best.
Some of their recently ordained clergy have been declared* 'not valid catholic ministers'. *This came from a statement from the Secretary to the CDF to ALL, yes, that's all Apostolic Nuncios.

In Brazil, the local Roman Catholic Church do not accept the baptism of ICAB, and any former ICAB members wishing to join the RC Church receive Baptism Absolutely. What does this tell you about ICAB and their sacraments?

I wouldn't trust anyone claiming ICAB succession. Admittedly, there have been the occasional exception, but the last minister from ICAB was accepted by Rome in the 1963 (but this is a different story); incidentally he was** NOT **in a committed (and legal) relationship with another man who also is a minister of ICAB!


#18

Although Dom Carlos Duarte Costa, already had left the Roman Catholic Church, and was no longer a member, acting as a bishop of that church in any way, on July 24, 1946, Dom Carlos Duarte Costa, was declared, “excommunicado vitando”, that is, excommunicated to the severest degree that exists, to prevent Roman Catholics from having anything to do with him whatsoever. This excommunication for his “schismatic audacity” was to make him “return to the unity of the true Church.”
this Make excommunication invalid no bishop my interferer with another Bishops jurisdiction or Church This is Canon Law.
today, there is no actual evidence anywhere of the alleged excommunication as consecration without a Papal Mandate during the 1938 to 1951 was a 1 year suspension only not excommunication, this is the reason as to why Bishop Duarte Costa left at least 1 year between each newly consecrated bishops consecration, to allow for the suspension.

further more Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI as well as 85 % bishops and cardinals in Roman Catholics Church Have and Shear Bishop Duarte Costa’s apostolic line so if he is invalid so is the Pope
rcsplxiii.info/


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