Sola Fide Spin of the day


#1

Discussing Sola Fide and Faith and works with the owner of this site,
behindthebadge.net/apologetics/index.html#5

This is what he had to say
**
The book of James clearly says that a person who has faith but who never*
[font=Arial]exibits any works has dead faith and that dead faith cannot save them. But what
does that mean? Does it mean that we are not saved by faith alone? No, it means
that if you have true faith your life and your heart will be changed and good
*works will be the result of that salvation, not the other way around. [/font]


#2

[quote=Sooner4Christ]Discussing Sola Fide and Faith and works with the owner of this site,
behindthebadge.net/apologetics/index.html#5

This is what he had to say

The book of James clearly says that a person who has faith but who never**
[font=Arial]exibits any works has dead faith and that dead faith cannot save them. But what
does that mean? Does it mean that we are not saved by faith alone? No, it means
that if you have true faith your life and your heart will be changed and good
*works will be the result of that salvation, not the other way around. *[/font]
[/quote]

The Gospel of John, Chapter 3 says as follows:

“(21) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
”(22) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God."

It seems to me that if you DO truth, you too will come to faith.

Fiat


#3

[quote=Fiat]The Gospel of John, Chapter 3 says as follows:

“(21) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
”(22) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in God."

It seems to me that if you DO truth, you too will come to faith.

Fiat
[/quote]

He has a great anti-catholic apologetics page… You should check it out, he claims to know our faith more than a true practicing Catholic.


#4

In some sense he is right. We are saved by grace. But the grace is not a one time shot when we declare JC PLS. We must respond to the grace and that response manifests itself in works. If the works are not done the grace was rejected, out souls were not strengthed against sin, and eventually we will likely “fall from grace”. The real difference in our theologies is hat he beleives we cannot fall from grace. He is quite wrong.

Gal.5

[list=1]
]4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have* fallen** away from grace.
[/list]You can’t fall from what you were not a part of.

Blessings


#5

For him, “saved” = “entering the state of grace”. Good (meritorious) works ARE the fruit of the state of grace. Your task is to show him that salvation is not a one-time event, something easily demonstrated from scripture. Once he sees that, then you won’t be speaking past each other.


#6

[quote=thessalonian]In some sense he is right. We are saved by grace. But the grace is not a one time shot when we declare JC PLS. We must respond to the grace and that response manifests itself in works. If the works are not done the grace was rejected, out souls were not strengthed against sin, and eventually we will likely “fall from grace”. The real difference in our theologies is hat he beleives we cannot fall from grace. He is quite wrong.

Gal.5
[list=1]
]4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have* fallen** away from grace.
[/list]You can’t fall from what you were not a part of.

Blessings
[/quote]

Oh it is definatly a semantics issue. He embraces Faith Alone (Yet what he just stated it must be a TRUE FAITH… again no problem with that), but the problem lies with him suggesting that the Catholic church believes in a works salvation system. His belief is very Catholic… this is how I responsded to his post.

I agree, and what you described IS NOT faith alone. Also I never suggested that Works lead to having faith in Jesus Christ… Huge misconception. You like to quote the Counsel of Trent, lets see what they said on this matter:
To reaffirm the difference, the Council of Trent states:

None of those things which precede justification – whether faith or works – merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

An atheist can do good works and not have faith. His works will not save him. If the atheist turns and has Faith in the Lord and obeys his commandments (works) for the Lord, then that person has faith and works. A person can have faith in Jesus Christ and be very hypocritical and be in sin and be separated from Our Lord. His faith in Jesus Christ alone will not earn him salvation. Point is Ralph my Catholic beliefs when talking about salvation are very similar to yours.

The most important is to realize that the Catholic Church does not teach that we earn our salvation by our own efforts, although it does teach that we have to work on our salvation. The same apostle who wrote Galatians also wrote Philippians, wherein Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12).


#7

[quote=thessalonian]…The real difference in our theologies is hat he beleives we cannot fall from grace. He is quite wrong.
[/quote]

Actually he does believe we can fall from grace, he believes in faith alone is sufficient for salvation. He doesn’t embrace OSAS, the person actually refutes OSAS.

Basically he is deceiving what the catholic church teaches by quoting the counsel of Trent numerous times and translating to what he thinks it means.

He really thinks he understands our faith better than any of us who truly embrace the faith.


#8

[quote=Sooner4Christ]Actually he does believe we can fall from grace, he believes in faith alone is sufficient for salvation. He doesn’t embrace OSAS, the person actually refutes OSAS.

Basically he is deceiving what the catholic church teaches by quoting the counsel of Trent numerous times and translating to what he thinks it means.

He really thinks he understands our faith better than any of us who truly embrace the faith.
[/quote]

I haven’t yet met a Protestant who honestly quoted Trent. I am sure they exist, I just haven’t met one. Oh, how the ones I have met love to take snippets of it, and say, “See, works salvation.”


#9

[quote=John_Henry]I haven’t yet met a Protestant who honestly quoted Trent. I am sure they exist, I just haven’t met one. Oh, how the ones I have met love to take snippets of it, and say, “See, works salvation.”
[/quote]

That is exactly what this person did. Jesus wrote scripture, Satan quotes scriptures and twists it. On a truly theological scale. So, yes I understand what you mean.

Read this page ( behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss120.html ) for example where he says,
“Or did I take the quote from the Counsel of Trent out of context? I will tell you it is pretty hard to take a quote like that out of context because it says what it says.”


#10

[quote=Sooner4Christ]That is exactly what this person did. Jesus wrote scripture, Satan quotes scriptures and twists it. On a truly theological scale. So, yes I understand what you mean.

Read this page ( behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss120.html ) for example where he says,
“Or did I take the quote from the Counsel of Trent out of context? I will tell you it is pretty hard to take a quote like that out of context because it says what it says.”
[/quote]

Yeah, I checked it out (briefly). I wish I had time to address such people. But I don’t. As if anyone ever denied (God forbid) the Mass was a sacrifice.


#11

The problem with those who advocate that a man is saved solely by grace minus nothing, is they feel man does nothing in actively responding to that grace that God commands in the first place.They totally they deny they do anything in response to God’s grace, when in reality they do and MUST.Let me explain.

                            God has provided salvation through the finished work of his Son and that is grace freely given and shown to man. But even though God so loved the world, man must RESPOND to that grace to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. No one is saved by the death of Christ, in and of itself, without a responsive faith to begin with.

                             One must be WILLING to believe and turn from one's sins. That the sinner must choose to do within himself. At the same time the believing and repentant sinner must OBEY what God has commanded us in his word. He says all believing and repentant sinners need to be baptized FOR the remission of sins. Without Christian baptism one cannot be born again, nor enter the Kingdom of God.

                                Now I ask you just WHO is responsible to believe the gospel, repent and be baptized? God or the sinner? God always pours out his grace, but it is only received by the sinner's response to what God offers. God continues to give his grace through the remaining sacraments through the Holy church. Such as the Eucharist and continued penance. 

                                  The Protestant conception of being saved by grace through faith minus nothing is ludicrous to say the least. It is an invention of John Calvin and needs to be anathematized, which I believe our council at Trent did.

#12

[quote=piety101]The problem with those who advocate that a man is saved solely by grace minus nothing, is they feel man does nothing in actively responding to that grace that God commands in the first place.They totally they deny they do anything in response to God’s grace, when in reality they do and MUST.Let me explain.

God has provided salvation through the finished work of his Son and that is grace freely given and shown to man. But even though God so loved the world, man must RESPOND to that grace to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life. No one is saved by the death of Christ, in and of itself, without a responsive faith to begin with.

One must be WILLING to believe and turn from one’s sins. That the sinner must choose to do within himself. At the same time the believing and repentant sinner must OBEY what God has commanded us in his word. He says all believing and repentant sinners need to be baptized FOR the remission of sins. Without Christian baptism one cannot be born again, nor enter the Kingdom of God.

Now I ask you just WHO is responsible to believe the gospel, repent and be baptized? God or the sinner? God always pours out his grace, but it is only received by the sinner’s response to what God offers. God continues to give his grace through the remaining sacraments through the Holy church. Such as the Eucharist and continued penance.

The Protestant conception of being saved by grace through faith minus nothing is ludicrous to say the least. It is an invention of John Calvin and needs to be anathematized, which I believe our council at Trent did.
[/quote]

What you said was absolutely inspired by the Holy Spirit! That was beautiful. Now, you also have individuals who misquote the Counsel of Trent to make it fit their anti-catholic agenda.


closed #13

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