Sola-IQ salvation by intellect alone


#1

Take a close look at these forums and correlate them with the populus at large. It's nuts. We have threads that will examine sola scriptura or salvation by faith alone in thier most finite detail until the cows come home. We beat up doctrine to depths only the most highly educated theologeans could argue. We are proud of ourselves when we make a good point.

The detail we examine employs language and writings of ancient theologeans; Doctors of the Church, ("Children of the Church" as some prtoestant theologeans might argue). We look at language by Augustine and many other anciient theologeans as well as mordern theologeans such as our relatively recent popes or Martin Luther of John Calvin....on and on and on. We beat these words over each of our respective heads until we bleed.

Confront your next door catholic or protestant neighbor next time they come over at Christmas time with a holiday fruitcake with a greeting such as "what is your opinion of "Sola-Fida" ? I bet you they'll beg your pardon and ask what team he plays for.

Catholics do not even know the words Sola-Scriptura or Sola-Fida. Protestants do not know who John Calvin is. Catholics do not know they are to believe the doctrines of the magisterium as being infallible on matter of faith and morals. Cathoics will laugh at you if you even suggest it. Just ask Piers Morgan, Vice Presidant Joe Biden or your catholic next door neighbor with the fruitcake.

We debate these issues in these forums as if they are the most pressing things on the minds of fellow catholics. They are not! FELLOW CATHOLICS DO NOT GO TO MASS ON MOST SUNDAYS!! They have no idea where this teaching comes from. They think you are the fruitcake if you press the matter, I know of what I speak. In my circle, I am the fruitcake. I am the fruitcake with nuts. I was much more lovable and loved when I was the life of the party. My friends and family shun me now. I know of what I speak here.

My friends, my family my most beloved friends of other faiths are so removed from the issues we discuss here that I have come to the conclusion that what we discuss here is (Edited) If what we discuss here does not apply to the masses, then what we discuss here amounts to nothing. If all we care to conclude is to win an argument with the other "intellectuals" in the forums then we have won nothing, in or for, Gods Kiingdom.

We are getting nowhere. The catholics you are conversing with on these forums are so deep in thier respective beliefs not much more needs to be said. Also, they represent much less than 1% of your fellow catholics. The protestants you converse with on these forums as equally deep withing thier respective belief systems.

The WORLD is in a much different place. Just ask your friends and family when they come over with the fruitcake. They will look at you as if you are the friutcake.

Mr. Karl Keating, Mr Scott Hahn....Mr. Apologist, do you not realize you are preaching ONLY to the chior? And in doing so you are making the chior believe all our loved ones are on a one way trip to eternal damnation? There is something terribly wrong with this picture. I cannot picture Jesus thinking only the bright will be saved; only inquisitive minds will be saved; only those with enough time to contimplate the matter will be saved. Those who are deeply engaged in this world (working for a living; struggling with life issues, hopelessly seduced by lifes lures, etc etc) are damned.

There's a disconnect here that we are afraid to confront. Generally speaking I find the people in theses forums to be selfish. I admit to being addicted to coming here and reading the words of you all. Yet I am deeeply dispturbed by the apparent blindness to the fact that what we do here is debate the pious and are oblivious to the REAL world around us. To h*** with them anyway. Right? Only the educated have a chance for eternal bliss.

We condemn our protestant brothers and sisters for preaching sola-fida. Yet we preach only the "wise" are saved. The uneducated catholic (to quote a term...."the 99%"); where do they stand? We do not discuss them. Instead we debate what Augustine meant in Book XX of The City OF God on matters of the end times as if the world cares.

This whole thing is NUTS! Do we really care about our neighbors with the fruitcake? Or do we want to win the argument on Augustines interpretation of the End Times?

Can you tell I am frustrated?


#2

That's an interesting set of points to ponder.

It is certainly not true that God will save only those with a genius-level IQ, or those who understand the difference between Thomism and Molinism. :D

A simple counter-example will demonstrate this: imagine a small child, born with cerebral palsy and a congenital heart defect. Her mother, who is Catholic, has her baptized at the moment of birth. Because of her cardiac problem, she dies at the age of 2 or 3.

Most of us would be more certain of this child's salvation than of our own. ;)

Let's remember what Christ said: "I confess to thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to little ones. Yea, Father: for so hath it seemed good in thy sight." (St. Matthew, 11: 25-26)

And: "Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven." (St. Matthew 18: 3-4)

But this is just a symptom of a larger disease, which is due to the information explosion of our century - as well as the rise of "amateur theologians" who indulge in just as much private interpretation as our Protestant brethren.

In the past, theology was practiced by theologians, just as medicine was practiced by doctors.

But now, with the availability of huge information resources - and the time to spend (or waste?) on them - anyone can study medicine at Google School of Medical Sciences and become his own doctor, and anyone can visit the Rorate Caeli School of True Catholic Apologetics and become a "Thomist" theologian. :D

Which is ridiculous.

During the Modernist crisis of the late 19th and early 20th century, most of us ordinary, church-going Catholics (such as my great-grandparents) would not even have known or cared about Modernism or the Syllabus of Errors. It was an issue between the Church and some renegade scholars and theologians in their midst, and it stayed there.

Fast forward to a hundred years later, and you have every self-appointed Professor Tom, Dick and Harry using the Syllabus of Errors as a proof-text (without any knowledge of its context), and their self-appointed "Liberal" Professors using Lumen Gentium as a proof-text as well.

Neither of those documents was meant to be used that way. It would be as ridiculous as me claiming to have studied medicine simply because I read Stedman's Medical Dictionary, or even Harrison's Principles and Practice of Internal Medicine.

But it's also part of modern culture and the spirit of individualism. In the past, we were content to take what the authorities said on faith, because we trusted them. The Reformation and the Enlightenment changed all that. Now, every pronouncement of the Pope, Cardinals or Bishops is subjected to the "dissection" of armchair theologians, who then gleefully proclaim that they have trapped them in error or heresy - when actually, they don't quite understand what was being said in the first place. :mad:

I agree with the OP: Wake up! Scholarly debates are fun and all that, but we need to work seriously on the basics. At the gates of Heaven, I doubt very much that Jesus is going to ask us to write a 200-page essay on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. We're never going to persuade anyone of the genuineness of our faith by such arguments, just as we're never going to cure someone's heart attack by lecturing them on the inflammatory pathology of blocked coronary vessels. :p


#3

IMO, the best theologians have simple theologies. But simplicity does not guarantee truthfulness which is more important. You are quite right about feeling proud of ourselves, until we realize that no-one bothers to read our point but responds only to the irrelevant part and simply repeat the very idiotic thing we so intelligently opposed :wink: .

Confront your next door catholic or protestant neighbor next time they come over at Christmas time with a holiday fruitcake with a greeting such as "what is your opinion of “Sola-Fida”? I bet you they’ll beg your pardon and ask what team he plays for.

Catholics do not even know the words Sola-Scriptura or Sola-Fida. … Just ask Piers Morgan, Vice Presidant Joe Biden or your catholic next door neighbor with the fruitcake.

Perhaps Mr. Biden and Mr. Morgan do know their faith and perhaps not. You cannot always judge how much a person knows by what they do. I come to this board because I don’t have neighbors for which I can talk about Sola-Scriptura, etc. If the opportunity to discuss religion comes up in real life I will discuss it on a level that is appropriate for that person. That chance of that conversation coming near the level of this board is not good, but that is ok.

We debate these issues in these forums as if they are the most pressing things on the minds of fellow catholics. They are not! FELLOW CATHOLICS DO NOT GO TO MASS ON MOST SUNDAYS!! They have no idea where this teaching comes from. They think you are the fruitcake if you press the matter, I know of what I speak. … I was much more lovable and loved when I was the life of the party. My friends and family shun me now. …

I understand your frustration. Of my family only 3 of 9 are going to Church regularly, including myself, my Dad, and one of my sisters. The rest are trying to lead good lives but don’t see the Church as necessary for their salvation. Most left the Church because of squabbles between parishioners and other petty squabbles.

… If what we discuss here does not apply to the masses, then what we discuss here amounts to nothing. If all we care to conclude is to win an argument with the other “intellectuals” in the forums then we have won nothing, in or for, Gods Kingdom.

More important than what affects the masses is what affects YOU. The masses can see that we are fighting for something we think is important.

We are getting nowhere. The catholics you are conversing with on these forums are so deep in their respective beliefs not much more needs to be said. …

The WORLD is in a much different place. Just ask your friends and family when they come over with the fruitcake. They will look at you as if you are the fruitcake.

… do you not realize you are preaching ONLY to the chior? And in doing so you are making the choir believe all our loved ones are on a one way trip to eternal damnation? There is something terribly wrong with this picture. …

I think you are expecting too much out of these forums. These forums are horrible places to directly reach the masses of everyday people. They need to be reached through catechism, homilies, Bible studies, etc. Getting the everyman into Church and into catechism is hard, but if we make the experiences worth-while, in a spiritual sense, then I believe they will return. And, part of being able to make these experience worth while is to be able to dot our 'i’s and cross our 't’s.

Too, this forum allows us to practice what we are to say to the everyman next door without it being high risk. If I go overboard, in my passion, here I don’t risk the faith of the others on this board because of it. They are just as nuts as I am. As long as we don’t think that the people on this board represents the everyman next door, I think we will be alright.

There’s a disconnect here that we are afraid to confront. Generally speaking I find the people in theses forums to be selfish. … I am deeply disturbed by the apparent blindness to the fact that what we do here is debate the pious and are oblivious to the REAL world around us. … Only the educated have a chance for eternal bliss.

We condemn our protestant brothers and sisters for preaching sola-fida. Yet we preach only the “wise” are saved. …

This whole thing is NUTS! Do we really care about our neighbors with the fruitcake? Or do we want to win the argument on Augustines interpretation of the End Times?

You are preaching to the choir. Personally, I feel this is a weakness of the modern Church in general. Not that they believe that only the theologically correct can be saved, but that they preach almost entirely to the theologically minded. Perhaps that is a flaw of how educated our priests and bishops, etc are. Mostly, I believe it is a flaw of how our bishops are selected. It is much easier for a Pope to select a bishop based on how theologically correct the statements of the candidate is than it is to select one based on how good of a shepherd he is. Only the flock or someone near the flock can judge how good a prospective shepherd would be.

We have serious pastoral issues getting people to go to Church and confession. etc., preparing people for marriage (so that it doesn’t end in divorce), and many other issues. Unfortunately, this forum cannot solve these issues; nor should it. Its purpose is different. We need another forum to discuss the pastoral issues; although there probably is one here someplace.

(p.s sorry about having to cut parts of your quotes to fit within 6000 characters.)


#4

Your observations are long overdue and as a regular poster to this forum, I am in agreement with your clear and insightful sentiments. I believe that they come from a place of “frustration” because this forum has the potential to be much more than it is–a platform for faith sharing and open dialogue as opposed to a platform for mere “intellectual stimulation”. When reaching out to those who are searching for some semblance of truth, we have to be careful to foster the spirit, not the letter of the law, as Jesus has directed us to.

This forum has the capability to reach out to the masses by its’ sheer volume, but I wonder sometimes what kind of information is really being disseminated to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Granted, catholics for the most part are not uneducated, yet there is a seeming “lack or knowledge” as regards their faith. Most catholics, I believe, are born into the faith and are more familiar with the church’s traditions and rituals (the mass, for eg.), as opposed to what the church’s doctrines and teachings are really all about. So, all intellectual dissertations aside, there are few catholics who would be able to discuss or fully understand most of the exchanges that take place within the context of this forum.

Your comments have been thought provoking and I hope they open the door to a “different kind of dialogue”. While there is no question this forum provides an avenue where catholics can indulge in “intelligent discussion”, it does not really serve the body of Christ who are searching for real, honest truth in a world devoid of hope. Jesus Himself preached a simple gospel that got to the heart of the matter and He broke down the ten commandments into a simple law of love that put His followers on the path to eternal salvation. We would all be better served to perhaps embrace Jesus’ concept of reaching out to the lost in a more simplistic, yet loving way.


#5

[quote="RPRPsych, post:2, topic:300232"]
That's an interesting set of points to ponder.
...

But this is just a symptom of a larger disease, which is due to the information explosion of our century - as well as the rise of "amateur theologians" who indulge in just as much private interpretation as our Protestant brethren.

In the past, theology was practiced by theologians, just as medicine was practiced by doctors.

But now, with the availability of huge information resources - and the time to spend (or waste?) on them - anyone can study medicine at Google School of Medical Sciences and become his own doctor, and anyone can visit the Rorate Caeli School of True Catholic Apologetics and become a "Thomist" theologian. :D

...

Fast forward to a hundred years later, and you have every self-appointed Professor Tom, Dick and Harry using the Syllabus of Errors as a proof-text (without any knowledge of its context), and their self-appointed "Liberal" Professors using Lumen Gentium as a proof-text as well.

Neither of those documents was meant to be used that way. It would be as ridiculous as me claiming to have studied medicine simply because I read Stedman's Medical Dictionary, or even Harrison's Principles and Practice of Internal Medicine.

[/quote]

I think you make an excellent point here.

But part of the problem is theology itself even if you strip away all of the speculative gobedly-gook. In the end theology has to produce something that is consumable by the masses for dealing with the real world, but the real world is messy. A theology may start out as simple and easily understood but even the simplest theologies get more and more rules added over time to combat heresies and to deal with important special cases until you have a mess that needs a lawyer to sort out. When that happens the theology is generally simplified and the process starts all over again.

But it's also part of modern culture and the spirit of individualism. In the past, we were content to take what the authorities said on faith, because we trusted them. The Reformation and the Enlightenment changed all that. Now, every pronouncement of the Pope, Cardinals or Bishops is subjected to the "dissection" of armchair theologians, who then gleefully proclaim that they have trapped them in error or heresy - when actually, they don't quite understand what was being said in the first place. :mad:

I agree with the OP: Wake up! Scholarly debates are fun and all that, but we need to work seriously on the basics. At the gates of Heaven, I doubt very much that Jesus is going to ask us to write a 200-page essay on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. We're never going to persuade anyone of the genuineness of our faith by such arguments, just as we're never going to cure someone's heart attack by lecturing them on the inflammatory pathology of blocked coronary vessels. :p

We do need to work on the basics, but that does not mean that we cannot do other stuff too. There is nothing wrong with having a forum dedicated to scholarly debates. (I have serious doubts whether or not this forum qualifies as scholarly, but that is another point.) If there are forums dedicated to parsing out which of the Kardassian's is the cutest then I think the world will survive this forum as long as we don't get too full of ourselves.


#6

[quote="Mijoy2, post:1, topic:300232"]
Take a close look at these forums and correlate them with the populus at large. It's nuts. We have threads that will examine sola scriptura or salvation by faith alone in thier most finite detail until the cows come home. We beat up doctrine to depths only the most highly educated theologeans could argue. We are proud of ourselves when we make a good point.

[/quote]

That's your opinion of course, and there may be some folks here that are like that but I disagree with your rash generalization because I've been here at CAF just about 6 months shy of it's very beginning and I don't see this problem.

The detail we examine employs language and writings of ancient theologeans; Doctors of the Church, ("Children of the Church" as some prtoestant theologeans might argue). We look at language by Augustine and many other anciient theologeans as well as mordern theologeans such as our relatively recent popes or Martin Luther of John Calvin....on and on and on. We beat these words over each of our respective heads until we bleed.

Terms are part of what allows communication and dialog. If someone's statements are relevant to a point of discussion, then why shouldn't they brought out? It helps everyone involved be clear about what they are talking about. I don't know about your "bleeding" statement. I never have, and no one that I hang out with on here is like that.

Communication is always a problem and even more so on intarwebz boards like this. No matter what the topic, or who's discussing it, it rarely remains all warm and fuzzy. That's just the way it is...:shrug:

Confront your next door catholic or protestant neighbor next time they come over at Christmas time with a holiday fruitcake with a greeting such as "what is your opinion of "Sola-Fida" ? I bet you they'll beg your pardon and ask what team he plays for.

:yawn: You do it. It's never been my style and can't see it ever becoming my style. Frankly, I don't really see a rational reason for your rant. Perhaps you just need to http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/1sm191coke.gif

Catholics do not even know the words Sola-Scriptura or Sola-Fida. Protestants do not know who John Calvin is. Catholics do not know they are to believe the doctrines of the magisterium as being infallible on matter of faith and morals. Cathoics will laugh at you if you even suggest it. Just ask Piers Morgan, Vice Presidant Joe Biden or your catholic next door neighbor with the fruitcake.

Maybe that has been your experience, but again, you make a number of rash generalizations because even if some fit your fallacious typing, I suggest that most do not. Especially most of the faithful Catholics here at CAF.

We debate these issues in these forums as if they are the most pressing things on the minds of fellow catholics. They are not!

Look, if you don't want to discuss those things then don't. No one is forcing you to post in threads you may not like, but who are you to tell others here what they should discuss or debate or how they should go about it? If you don't like apologetics, then there is a wide selection of other fora available to you and if nothing on CAF suits you, then hey, there are other Catholic forums on the intarwebz. No one has you chained to CAF.

Furthermore, when n-Cs/a-Cs approach us with their evangelistic efforts, oftentimes faithful Catholics are not sure how to respond, and that's where CAF and Catholic Answers is handy. It supplies accurate and helpful information to assist people in their journey of faith.

FELLOW CATHOLICS DO NOT GO TO MASS ON MOST SUNDAYS!! They have no idea where this teaching comes from.

Rash generalization again. Your inference is that this is the case with "most" Catholics, which may or may not be true. Besides...sweating that is above our pay grade which is one reason the new translation of the Mass uses "for many" (pro multis in Latin) in the consecration. Not everyone will respond even though Our Blessed Lord gave Himself up for us all. If you read the Gospels you find Our Lord talking about people who say "Lord, Lord" and are tares among the wheat, or seed that falls on something other than good ground. Nowhere does it say that everyone will do what they are supposed to. You sow...another reaps, but that's just what you do and just as the Old Testament prophets were told, you are the watchman and you must sound the warning otherwise we will be required to account for the blood of the lost.

They think you are the fruitcake if you press the matter, I know of what I speak. In my circle, I am the fruitcake. I am the fruitcake with nuts. I was much more lovable and loved when I was the life of the party. My friends and family shun me now. I know of what I speak here.

Yeah...I'm sorry but even I can see why they think you're kind of a fruitcake based on your rant, so I can relate to your friends and family. Maybe you would benefit from something I read that makes good sense. Friendship: The Key to the Evangelization of Men
(Cont'd)


#7

My friends, my family my most beloved friends of other faiths are so removed from the issues we discuss here that I have come to the conclusion that what we discuss here is (Edited). If what we discuss here does not apply to the masses, then what we discuss here amounts to nothing. If all we care to conclude is to win an argument with the other “intellectuals” in the forums then we have won nothing, in or for, Gods Kiingdom.

First, you need to mind your mouth.

I have yet to encounter any aspect of the Catholic faith that “does not apply to the masses”, and to be honest I haven’t seen any other religion that does that better than the Catholic Church, so I don’t know what parish you’re in but if that is what you think, then I suggest that you could use some serious time for prayer and reflection.

I don’t know of a single solitary member here at CAF who’s solely interested in just winning an argument. That’s pretty much another rash generalization not borne out by facts.

The truth is we have to be living out our faith before anyone cares why we live like we do. “life of the party” types are mostly just attention seekers who substitute that attention for genuine approval, when in fact most people see such a person as a sort of clown and an entertainment instead of a person that they will turn to some aspect of their life goes awry bigtime. Just something to think about, okay?

We are getting nowhere. The catholics you are conversing with on these forums are so deep in thier respective beliefs not much more needs to be said. Also, they represent much less than 1% of your fellow catholics. The protestants you converse with on these forums as equally deep withing thier respective belief systems.

If you say so…and where do you get these stats? Thin air right?

You may be getting nowhere, but I have a number of friends and family members that I am slowly working to bring into the faith. None of them see me as a fruitcake, so I have to ask just what you are doing wrong?

The WORLD is in a much different place. Just ask your friends and family when they come over with the fruitcake. They will look at you as if you are the friutcake.

Last time I checked, both at church and in my New Testament, i seem to recall it saying that whatever “place” the world is in is not where we are supposed to be. You know…that whole “in the world but not of it” thing that Christ spoke of? (See John 15:19)

Mr. Karl Keating, Mr Scott Hahn…Mr. Apologist, do you not realize you are preaching ONLY to the chior? And in doing so you are making the chior believe all our loved ones are on a one way trip to eternal damnation? There is something terribly wrong with this picture. I cannot picture Jesus thinking only the bright will be saved; only inquisitive minds will be saved; only those with enough time to contimplate the matter will be saved. Those who are deeply engaged in this world (working for a living; struggling with life issues, hopelessly seduced by lifes lures, etc etc) are damned.

Here, you really are talking through your hat. The Church has always taught that our first field of evangelism is to those in our own households, then to friends, neighbors, (with or without the fruitcakes).

It has nothing to do with IQs or intelligence, it has everything to do with whether people see us living out our faith and then we share with them as they can handle it. What did Christ tell us when He was about to ascend back to the father?
19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

No one has to be a theologian or even an apologist per se, but we all need to be learning our faith so that we can carry out the commission that St. Peter gives us in his 1st epistle, 3rd chapter, verses 13-17.

There’s a disconnect here that we are afraid to confront. Generally speaking I find the people in theses forums to be selfish. I admit to being addicted to coming here and reading the words of you all. Yet I am deeeply dispturbed by the apparent blindness to the fact that what we do here is debate the pious and are oblivious to the REAL world around us. To h*** with them anyway. Right? Only the educated have a chance for eternal bliss.

Hogwash…really…
(Cont’d)


#8

We condemn our protestant brothers and sisters for preaching -]sola-fida/-] (It’s Sola Fide. At least get the terms right. :tissues:). Yet we preach only the “wise” are saved. The uneducated catholic (to quote a term…“the 99%”); where do they stand? We do not discuss them. Instead we debate what Augustine meant in Book XX of The City OF God on matters of the end times as if the world cares.

More generalizations… you are so incredibly far off base. I have never seen any threads anywhere here on CAF, in the 8 years I’ve been here that fit this allegation. Not one. So your whole rant makes no sense at all. Like I said, no one forces anyone to post in any thread, or even to be here on CAF at all, so honestly, your post just makes you look like you have just totally flipped out. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/explode.gif

This whole thing is NUTS! Do we really care about our neighbors with the fruitcake? Or do we want to win the argument on Augustines interpretation of the End Times?

If you don’t wanna talk about that stuff, don’t post on it…ignore it and post on what you are interested in, which I can’t really figure out so far, but whatever it is…enjoy!

Can you tell I am frustrated?

I don’t think many people can tell exactly what you are right now because your rant is so far out in the boonies that it makes no sense. The picture you paint of CAF is so far divorced from the reality of it that I’m not sure why you bothered to post it.

I don’t mean to put you down, but honestly your whole rant comes off as irrational. It sounds to me like you’ve been pestering people with your new found apologetics knowledge and have turned so many people off that they won’t hang out or talk to you anymore. If that’s true, then that’s a maturity issue for you and not apologetics in general, CAF, or the people around you.

Question: Is this person’s post what is sometimes called “a hissy fit”?


#9
See Black Knight

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