Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

I don’t believe Saint Paul was freaking out in a corner and nail biting either.

What I believe was that Saint Paul was simply living a holy life of faith and works; trusting in God and His promises. Confident that in the end; his soul will be saved.

Your image of the nail biting is that of a scrupulous man, which Luther was one such man in the Confessional; obsessed and never at rest with whether or not his soul is saved or damned. That’s the devil working on you when you’re stuck in that mode.

Simply believe and do, staying “ heads down “ in it and don’t pay the devil any mind. That’s how to understand Church doctrine.

:thinking: I understand your concern, mcq. I really do.

I’m so sorry that you’re that scared, brother.

Amen…and why i believe the fear and trembling text deals with fullfilling his calling as an apostle, and obtaining and not losing his due reward by screwing up not his salvation but his ministry…to the very end

Why do you believe that, mcq. Please, help me understand.

Darn tagging feature.

Possibly but mot sure that he never rested. I understood he was much worse before his encounter with a gracious God.

It’s our understanding that Luther never truly rested.

We have ample example in P church of big name ministers falling from grace in their ministry because of a sin etc for wbich they would repent, and some lose their ministry, and indeed do damage to gospel, to which i would say they would have a big loss of reward on judgement day of the saints.

Why couldn’t Paul be referencing such a thing for himself…why are we told to pray for our leaders? Are they not subject to temptation moreso, not to lose the faith but to simply fail to uphold the standard of holiness that they preach. Only model disciples were to be elevated in position or office and to remain.

Don’t think Paul refers to losing his salvation in said discourse.

:thinking: I understand you, mcq.

You want to take this to PM?

Well, he rested enough in grace to live to be a much older man than he was destined to be otherwise.( similar to a Wesley).

:thinking: But, if you look at his later life you will see that he didn’t get better or grow in holiness; which is the true test of a man’s faith and doctrine.

Did he get worse?

Some gifts are with out repentance, not revoked.

Forget the character name but he wrote lyrics to famous song about Christ even trusting in him…not sure if he later committed suicide…his song and the Truth in it still prevail to this day.

So not sure you can always judge a man’s doctrine by his outcome…at worst you can judge him against his own doctrine, for failing to live up to it.

:thinking: I realize that I misspoke.

I should’ve said: Growing in holiness and living a better life is the true test of a man’s understanding.

Yes, Luther got worse.

Off the top of my head, Luther advocated the killing of German peasants who revolted, inspired by his teachings; against the princes on whom he relied on for support. Just before he died, he advocated the forcible conversion and/or killing of Jews. He was disturbingly anti Semitic.

Luther wasn’t truly a man of God; when you look at his fruits.

Now, as for what you see I can the Protestant communities; I’ve seen it too in my own pre Catholic days. In fact, it drove me away from Christianity altogether when I was in my twenties.

As for our leaders: You must remember that they’re men and women with flaws and foibles. We in the Church understand this and we pray frequently for our leaders and our priests. In fact, one of our most popular saints, Saint Therese of Lisieux; said upon her entry into the convent that her intention was to pray for souls, especially priests; and save souls.

When we sin, that’s why we have the Sacrament of Confession. We try to follow Christ. When we sin, we take to Confession, repent and resolve to avoid what leads us to sin in the future.

Disgraced? Perhaps. Failing to do all I could or should I think would be very disappointing.

Trembling over just losing rewards? Nope. I’ve been humbled by God enough in my life to not worry myself over ‘stuff’ lol.

The same gracious God existed in the Catholic Church before Luther’s revolt. He just misunderstood Catholic theology and perhaps suffered some minor form of mental illness. Would explain his ridiculous scrupulosity.

There are two things to consider.

First, despite his zeal he may not have ever had a “saving faith”. It is very easy to do Christian things without having ever been converted, especially is you were brought up in a church culture and know what is expected and how to “act like a Christian”. Doing Christian things doesn’t make you a Christian.

The is scripture precedent for this view in 1 John 3:18 and following. The antichrist who have come is referring to people who attended the church but left to follow other teachings (presumably gnostism). I think we can infer that that those people were baptized and took the Lord’s Supper and were considered part of the church.

Then in verse 19 John says They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.. So it is possible to have the appearance of having been converted and take part in the rituals of the church and still never be part of “us”. Even though the had been baptized, took the Lord’s Supper, attended meetings and so forth, they weren’t really Christians, they had never been “born from above”.

Another thing to consider is the discipline of God to His legitimate children. Hebrews 12:7-11

I believe that if any legitimate children of God fall into sin they will come under His discipline. And that discipline could possibly even be physical death. I once heard a preacher say that the Lord will not let His legitimate children continue in their sinful ways. And that if they refuse to repent He will take them out of this world so they will not bring dishonor to His name.

There is also scriptural precedent for this view. 1 Cor 5:5 says that when the church turns someone over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh so their spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord. The indication here is that so the person will die in their sins and yet still be saved at judgement. We also see in 1 Cort 11:29 that some Christians had become sick and died as a result of taking the Lord’s Supper unworthily. I believe this is the discipline of God toward His Children.

I agree, it is a sad event anytime anyone “de-converts”. Only the Lord knows their heart and motives and if they were ever sincere in their faith. And I don’t know if OSAS is true or not but I hope to God it is. I hope that when that wayward college student dies in a car wreck it is part of the Lord’s discipline and that the Lord will welcome him home as the father welcomed the prodigal son home.

Lol…would that more of us suffer or be at pains for not having a more perfect union with Christ…as many mystical saints have.

Perhaps and perhaps he took it more seriously than others.

:thinking:

Your take is problematic, Ianman87.

Converted/Deconverted.

You’re stating two contrary things simultaneously; while seeming to preserve the principle of saving faith.

First off, the never truly converted thing and doing what’s culturally expected.

That implies to me that someone could potentially “ go through the motions “ sincerely believing they have a saving faith; while in reality they didn’t. Assuming innocence and sincere intent and the person in question isn’t attempting to deceive himself and others.

Under these conditions, it’s impossible to establish with any certainty when and if someone has a saving faith. Even the person himself can’t determine whether or not he truly converted and has saving faith. The normal determining criteria would be to examine their fruits. But, under your conditions; you can’t even do that as you stated that it’s possible to act like a Christian and yet never truly be a Christian.

This position, while saying either/or simultaneously like quantum physics’ Uncertainty Principle; eliminates any possibility of having certain knowledge of one’s salvation.

Which should be the point of Sola Fide.

Now, in your theology, “ deconversion “ should be impossible. I understand that, if Sola Fide is correct; a person undergoes a conversion experience when one is graced with a saving faith in Christ that fundamentally and permanently rewires a person: Mind, heart and soul. It should therefore be impossible to sin again or even lose your faith. Yet, you yourself had said: “ I agree, it’s a sad event anytime anyone deconverts. “

I’m not understanding how you can believe the conversion/deconversion thing.

The discipline of God thing.

Now, as adopted children of God and co heirs of Christ; we are under God’s loving discipline. We can agree on that.

Your position states that it’s possible for us to sin. When we sin, we are disciplined by God. This discipline includes the possibility of God killing us in our sins. :thinking:

God killing us in our sins as a method of corrective discipline? Even before we have a chance to repent? Killing us in our sins would be like a man killing his dog for peeing in the house as a means to correct the dog. Killing us in our sins should send us to hell; yet your position maintains that a dead unrepentant sinner could still be saved at the Last Judgement?

You had mentioned repentance. Where does repentance fall in your theology if God will kill us to correct us?

The preacher you mentioned says some paradoxical things. That God will not let His legitimate children continue in their sinful ways. And that when they sin, at the refusal to repent, God will take us out of the world; so dishonor will not stain His people.

That preacher teaches paradoxically that God will prevent us to continue in sin; yet kill us when we refuse to repent after we sin.

This makes God double minded, perhaps schizophrenic; as well as prepared to violate, at His will; the free will he gave us.

Agree but wouldn’t separate the two…but I think one would fear, in a healthy way, even tremble or shudder at the thought of failing Christ…especially if one is deeply motivated and in love with Jesus ,with much forgiven, as Paul was…much more than just “disappointing”.

:thinking:

A truly saintly person of God wouldn’t fret one iota over losing rewards. The fear and trembling would be over the loss of salvation.

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