Solution for Episcopal Church Orders ?


#1

OK here is a can of worms to chew on .

As we know the Church has ruled against the validity of Priestly Orders in the Anglican Church.

Is there any reason the Catholic Church could not make their orders valid again by Catholic Bishops ( the Pope?) laying hands on a few Anglican Bishops? Admittedly this would take great generosity on the part of Catholics and great Humility on the part of Anglicans but is it possible, or desirable?

The Anglo-Catholic side of the Anglican Church as far as i know does not ordain Women or some of those other things to which we might object. (And Boy Howdy are their Masses beautiful)

In this way many more of the worlds people could then receive the Eucharist. Great love would result between the two groups. They are in great need of friends right now.

Can you think of other good or bad things that might result? Just an idea.
Signed ,
A former Anglican:rolleyes:


#2

To obtain valid Holy Orders, all an Anglican priest or bishop need do is to become a Catholic. That’s what the Rt. Rev. Graham Leonard, ex-bishop of London, did. He was 46 years an Anglican priest, 30 of those years an Anglican bishop. He’s been an ordinary Catholic priest since April, 1994. He can’t be a Catholic bishop – he’s married.

Why did he become Catholic? Authority. Catholics have it – Anglicans don’t.


#3

[quote=Katholikos]To obtain valid Holy Orders, all an Anglican priest or bishop need do is to become a Catholic. That’s what the Rt. Rev. Graham Leonard, ex-bishop of London, did. He was 46 years an Anglican priest, 30 of those years an Anglican bishop. He’s been an ordinary Catholic priest since April, 1994. He can’t be a Catholic bishop – he’s married.

Why did he become Catholic? Authority. Catholics have it – Anglicans don’t.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree but thats not my point. Is there any reason it could not happen? As an interim step to union.


#4

[quote=Katholikos]To obtain valid Holy Orders, all an Anglican priest or bishop need do is to become a Catholic. That’s what the Rt. Rev. Graham Leonard, ex-bishop of London, did. He was 46 years an Anglican priest, 30 of those years an Anglican bishop. He’s been an ordinary Catholic priest since April, 1994. He can’t be a Catholic bishop – he’s married.

Why did he become Catholic? Authority. Catholics have it – Anglicans don’t.
[/quote]

In fact, Fr. Leonard’s case was a little special. He was only the 2nd Anglican priest known who was ordained sub conditione, rather than absolutely, when he was received. Fr. J. J. Hughes, author of 2 books on Apostolicae Curae that I highly recommend, was the first such.

GKC


#5

[quote=JohnCarroll]OK here is a can of worms to chew on .

As we know the Church has ruled against the validity of Priestly Orders in the Anglican Church.

Is there any reason the Catholic Church could not make their orders valid again by Catholic Bishops ( the Pope?) laying hands on a few Anglican Bishops? Admittedly this would take great generosity on the part of Catholics and great Humility on the part of Anglicans but is it possible, or desirable?

The Anglo-Catholic side of the Anglican Church as far as i know does not ordain Women or some of those other things to which we might object. (And Boy Howdy are their Masses beautiful)

In this way many more of the worlds people could then receive the Eucharist. Great love would result between the two groups. They are in great need of friends right now.

Can you think of other good or bad things that might result? Just an idea.
Signed ,
A former Anglican:rolleyes:
[/quote]

In fact, the logic of this proposition is what is behind the contention that most Anglicans orders were regularized through the participation of Old Catholic bishops back in the 30s, when the OCs were still orthodox. OC orders are recognised as valid by Rome, and most all Anglican bishops can find an OC in their line. Of course, this also requires an examination of intent, on a case by case basis. This was part of the logic behind Fr. Leonard being ordained sub conditione.

GKC


#6

[quote=GKC]In fact, Fr. Graham’s case was a little special. He was only the 2nd Anglican priest known who was ordained sub conditione, rather than absolutely, when he was received. Fr. J. J. Hughes, author of 2 books on Apostolicae Curae that I highly recommend, was the first such.

GKC
[/quote]

Thanks for the Post GKC
Can you Tell my what sub conditione means? What were the conditions?


#7

[quote=JohnCarroll]Thanks for the Post GKC
Can you Tell my what sub conditione means? What were the conditions?
[/quote]

You are very welcome.

Sub conditione means under conditions, that is, he was not ordained absolutely, as if it were certain that his Anglican orders were invalid, but conditionally, in case his orders might have been valid.

It’s sort of like a conditional baptism. That sacrament is not to be repeated, but if it is not known whether a given individual has been baptised, one can baptise conditionally: “If you have not already been baptised, I baptise you…”

GKC


#8

[quote=GKC]You are very welcome.

Sub conditione means under conditions, that is, he was not ordained absolutely, as if it were certain that his Anglican orders were invalid, but conditionally, in case his orders might have been valid.

It’s sort of like a conditional baptism. That sacrament is not to be repeated, but if it is not known whether a given individual has been baptised, one can baptise conditionally: “If you have not already been baptised, I baptise you…”

GKC
[/quote]

I am feeling smarter by the minute. Why is this not talked about more often? All I hear about is the invalidity of Anglican orders. Has this problem been solved?


#9

Having been an Anglican (Episcopal Church USA) for 13 years before becoming a Catholic, and owing so much to the “Anglican Way” for teaching me the meaning and value of sacraments, liturgy, and tradition, I do wish something could be done. But “laying hands on a few Anglican bishops” would not, if I have any understanding of these things, accomplish it. Having a Catholic bishop intervene to re-ordain Anglo-Catholic priests or bishops would raise all kinds of jurisdictional issues. But aside from that, there are other intersecting issues to be dealt with that the Episcopal Church, given its crumbling doctrinal and disciplinary condition, is hardly equipped to face – church authority, the meaning and nature of the Eucharist, the Eucharistic language of the Book of Common Prayer, the language of the Ordinal, to name a few. Catholicism is “whole cloth.” It comes in different colors and fabrics (rites, languages, customs, devotions, etc.), but it doesn’t come in pieces.

My brother, who is still an Episcopalian, was hurt when I became a Catholic, because of this very issue of Anglican orders. The “Anglican use” liturgy which John Paul II has allowed, even encouraged where feasible, is a generous way of offering the right hand of fellowship, but even that does not attempt to salvage Anglican orders. Perhaps something can be done one day concerning the “continuing” Anglican churches. I’ve thought for some time, with great regret, that Anglicanism is a sinking ship.


#10

[quote=mbryanbooks]Having been an Anglican (Episcopal Church USA) for 13 years before becoming a Catholic, and owing so much to the “Anglican Way” for teaching me the meaning and value of sacraments, liturgy, and tradition, I do wish something could be done. But “laying hands on a few Anglican bishops” would not, if I have any understanding of these things, accomplish it. Having a Catholic bishop intervene to re-ordain Anglo-Catholic priests or bishops would raise all kinds of jurisdictional issues. But aside from that, there are other intersecting issues to be dealt with that the Episcopal Church, given its crumbling doctrinal and disciplinary condition, is hardly equipped to face – church authority, the meaning and nature of the Eucharist, the Eucharistic language of the Book of Common Prayer, the language of the Ordinal, to name a few. Catholicism is “whole cloth.” It comes in different colors and fabrics (rites, languages, customs, devotions, etc.), but it doesn’t come in pieces.

My brother, who is still an Episcopalian, was hurt when I became a Catholic, because of this very issue of Anglican orders. The “Anglican use” liturgy which John Paul II has allowed, even encouraged where feasible, is a generous way of offering the right hand of fellowship, but even that does not attempt to salvage Anglican orders. Perhaps something can be done one day concerning the “continuing” Anglican churches. I’ve thought for some time, with great regret, that Anglicanism is a sinking ship.

[/quote]

Dear Books
Thank you for your post. I agree with your assessment of the Popes generous offer to form an Anglican Use within the Catholic Church. My wife and I are in the process of crossing over. Soon to be confirmed. Naive questions: Have you found Catholic friends? Have you found catholics who encourage you to go closer to Jesus?


#11

[quote=JohnCarroll]I am feeling smarter by the minute. Why is this not talked about more often? All I hear about is the invalidity of Anglican orders. Has this problem been solved?
[/quote]

No, for a variety of complicated and not always edifying reasons.

GKC


#12

[quote=JohnCarroll]Dear Books
Thank you for your post. I agree with your assessment of the Popes generous offer to form an Anglican Use within the Catholic Church. My wife and I are in the process of crossing over. Soon to be confirmed. Naive questions: Have you found Catholic friends? Have you found catholics who encourage you to go closer to Jesus?
[/quote]

Absolutely I’ve found Catholic friends! Certainly there are Catholics who are indifferent or careless about their faith (and you’ll encounter some on your journey), but I have met and been befriended by so many vibrant, faith-filled Catholics. The Lord has his people everywhere! I wish and pray the same for you and your wife.


#13

[quote=mbryanbooks]Having been an Anglican (Episcopal Church USA) for 13 years before becoming a Catholic, and owing so much to the “Anglican Way” for teaching me the meaning and value of sacraments, liturgy, and tradition, I do wish something could be done. But “laying hands on a few Anglican bishops” would not, if I have any understanding of these things, accomplish it. Having a Catholic bishop intervene to re-ordain Anglo-Catholic priests or bishops would raise all kinds of jurisdictional issues. But aside from that, there are other intersecting issues to be dealt with that the Episcopal Church, given its crumbling doctrinal and disciplinary condition, is hardly equipped to face – church authority, the meaning and nature of the Eucharist, the Eucharistic language of the Book of Common Prayer, the language of the Ordinal, to name a few. Catholicism is “whole cloth.” It comes in different colors and fabrics (rites, languages, customs, devotions, etc.), but it doesn’t come in pieces.

My brother, who is still an Episcopalian, was hurt when I became a Catholic, because of this very issue of Anglican orders. The “Anglican use” liturgy which John Paul II has allowed, even encouraged where feasible, is a generous way of offering the right hand of fellowship, but even that does not attempt to salvage Anglican orders. Perhaps something can be done one day concerning the “continuing” Anglican churches. I’ve thought for some time, with great regret, that Anglicanism is a sinking ship.

[/quote]

Greetings, mbryanbooks,

Theoretically, an infusion of the RC episcopate might “solve” the problem, since it lies in the RC understanding of Anglican orders to begin with (Anglican opinion). But it won’t happen. For one thing, the RCC doesn’t need a sudden influx of Anglo-Catholic traditionalists into its ranks. They got enough to do dealing with their own resident Traditionalists.

I’m a Continuing Anglican, and I don’t suppose it will surprise you to hear that I agree with most of what you say about ECUSA. I could argue the issue of the Prayer Book and the Ordinal, but there is no point in it. I normally don’t get into Apostolicae Curae discussions anymore, either. Which reminds me that I haven’t recommended this site yet:

ACCIPE POSTESTAM

angelfire.com/nj/malleus/

It’s run by the most knowledgeable individual on the sad subject of Apostolicae Curae that I know (that is, he knows more than I do). A loyal RC, faithful to the Magesterium, and with some interesting thoughts on Continuing Anglicans and Orders. Also a good overview of the RC position on the original controversy.

The Anglican Use is a short term arrangement, to ease the passage of a few parishes and isolated individuals into the RCC. I have no problem with it, as I noted in another post, my Continuing Anglican parish and a local Anglican Use parish are “related”, both coming out of the most Anglo-Catholic ECUSA parish in town, when ECUSA began to go seriously whacko. There is no provision for the next generation and by then the AU will be history (IMO).

Nice to meet you.

GKC


#14

As is the ordination of women wasn’t enough of a stumbling block to the reunification of Anglicans with the Catholic Church, the recent development of a liturgy for homosexual weddings by the Episcopal Diocese of Vermont suggests the situation is worsening.


#15

[quote=GKC]Greetings, mbryanbooks,

Theoretically, an infusion of the RC episcopate might “solve” the problem, since it lies in the RC understanding of Anglican orders to begin with (Anglican opinion). But it won’t happen. For one thing, the RCC doesn’t need a sudden influx of Anglo-Catholic traditionalists into its ranks. They got enough to do dealing with their own resident Traditionalists.

I’m a Continuing Anglican, and I don’t suppose it will surprise you to hear that I agree with most of what you say about ECUSA. I could argue the issue of the Prayer Book and the Ordinal, but there is no point in it. I normally don’t get into Apostolicae Curae discussions anymore, either.

GKC
[/quote]

Hello GKC( Is that handle for G. K. Chesterton?)
The Anglican Church is a beautiful Painting and we spend ( spent in my case) a lot of time discussing how to frame it while the Museum is on fire. It would be a GREAT shame if the beauty of that Church were alowed to die. Can it exist in little pieces? I doubt it can. Is its contribution to Christianity primarily Theological or is it Liturgical. I visit an Anglican Use parish but it is not the same as my old Episcopal Parish --for one thing, the people have stopped singing .


#16

[quote=JohnCarroll]Hello GKC( Is that handle for G. K. Chesterton?)
[/quote]

Yes, indeed. I started reading, studying and collecting Chesterton almost 40 years ago. Along with a lot of other RC and Anglican folks. Really fond of Belloc, Lewis, Williams, Sayers, Lunn, etc.

[quote=JohnCarroll]The Anglican Church is a beautiful Painting and we spend ( spent in my case) a lot of time discussing how to frame it while the Museum is on fire. It would be a GREAT shame if the beauty of that Church were alowed to die. Can it exist in little pieces? I doubt it can. Is its contribution to Christianity primarily Theological or is it Liturgical. I visit an Anglican Use parish but it is not the same as my old Episcopal Parish --The people have stopped singing for one thing.
[/quote]

The AU have stopped singing? Cultural shift and assimulation.

In your metaphor, we Continuing Anglicans left the Museum. Or the sinking ship. Whether we can survive, or how, remains to be seen. For this of us for whom Rome is an option, go for it. Me, I need to keep singing.

GKC


#17

The Anglican Church is a beautiful Painting and… It would be a GREAT shame if the beauty of that Church were alowed to die. Can it exist in little pieces?

I wholeheartedly agree but hey…pieces are better than nothing …God can always surprise us with “crazy glue” ! Pieces, kind of like the body of Christ! May God preserve us all!

I dont know about AU but in some RC masses I have attended the visiting CEC folk were the only ones singing? I wonder if this is a general problem?

Blessings

Serafin


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