Some Evidence that the SSPX IS in schism

jloughnan.tripod.com/ad2000_1.htm

[quote=Sean O L]jloughnan.tripod.com/ad2000_1.htm
[/quote]

Wow, you really hate the SSPX don’t you?

[quote=warrior71]Wow, you really hate the SSPX don’t you?
[/quote]

He just believes that the SSPX is in schism.

I’ve never quite understood this kind of list-making and finger-pointing. It smacks of a sort of small thinking much akin to prooftexting. The fact that our late pope pronounced the SSPX to be excommunicate ought to be enough to settle the issue. The fact that members of this or that organization or group slur the pope or disagree with his policies does not itself prove their distance from the Church (though it may cast a shadow). There’s no real point in voyeuristically airing the sins of others like this. Let it be enough that Rome has pronounced them outside of the Church.

Their is a good point in warning people that might not know about SSPX being in schism, which apparently are many due to the amount of questions on this forum. People can very easily get sucked into SSPX.

warrior71 wrote:

Wow, you really hate the SSPX don’t you?

The SSPX is an organization composed of persons.

I do NOT hate the persons at all, but seriously desire that they save their souls - which is best done through being in full communion with the Church. Remember that old Dogma - “Outside the Church there is no Salvation”?

Now, I am certainly NOT judging the state of the souls of the persons who are adherents - but I am, just as certainly, able to judge the words and actions of those persons vis a vis the Church - based entirely on what the Magisteriun and logic supplies.

I have stated elsewhere that my six best friends are still adherents to the SSPX. We have gathered together in one anothers’ homes over the past thirty plus years approximately fifteen times per year, and are in weekly phone contact. We love them dearly, and long for their return to union with Holy Mother Church - and that they save their souls.

On the other hand, there is the “organization” - the empire at war with the Church which seduces my fellow Catholics and unsuspecting converts into its bosom. I consider it to be evil, and - as I know it well - I have a duty to combat it as best as I can.

Oh yes! This DOES draw personal attack and invective - but that is simply a part of the price to pay.

I assure you that it would be so much more “comfortable” to take the position of finger-pointers and to be - gutless.

[quote=bear06]Their is a good point in warning people that might not know about SSPX being in schism, which apparently are many due to the amount of questions on this forum. People can very easily get sucked into SSPX.
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But really hasn’t it been done enough on this forum?

And also, some people need to get the warning about the other “Independent” Catholic churches. We have one near my house. I was looking for a Baltimore Catechism back when we were at the “Catholic Community”. The Independent church had a bookstore and a homeschooling program, a convent, a seminary, a school and a church. I found them on the Internet and called to buy from their bookstore. I have to tell you that I was totally enamored by the girls in below the knee uniforms, boys in blazers and pretty young nuns in full habit. I had never heard of this kind of place.
Little did I know, until talking to a friend, that they denied Rome.

Just like Oz, it was beautiful there. Just like Oz, it was not real. Real Catholic that is.

[quote=Sean O L]I assure you that it would be so much more “comfortable” to take the position of finger-pointers and to be - gutless.
[/quote]

[Just before posting this, I noticed that this sentence now reads “finger-pointers.” I’m pretty sure that this originally read “Gimp.”]

This, like much of the content of the site you linked, is a cheap shot. It may be a waste of time to respond, but I’m curious, what is “gutless” about stating that the SSPX is in schism? Or is my stance lacking in courage simply because I do not pile accusation on accusation (even if true) upon their heads? Many of the quotes on that website seem to be from individual priests, not from bishops who represent the entire group. The things they say are as repugnant to me as to you, but spreading every idle word that proceeds from their mouths seems to come very close to, if not stepping right into, the sin of detraction.

I’m all for reconciling the SSPX to the Church. I attend a local Latin indult mass, and I love everything about it; the Church would be enriched if our errant brothers would return to the fold. But I’m afraid that all this name-calling and quote-pulling is overkill that will only push them further away in the long run. By all means be brutally honest with the fact that they are in schism, but don’t go pulling all the logs out of their eyes. Let them first see the big picture without confusing them with small details, and the other problems will follow suit. If we can convince them of their larger error, and if they are honest, then they will repent, however slowly.

OTOH one has to admit that the subject has been done to death here and I fear that the continued saber rattling makes many just go glassy eyed after awhile.

In addition to all the debate threads, the Ask An Apologist section of the forum seems clear enough:

Am I sinning by attending an SSPX chapel?
(forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85351

[quote=netmilsmom]But really hasn’t it been done enough on this forum?

And also, some people need to get the warning about the other “Independent” Catholic churches. We have one near my house. I was looking for a Baltimore Catechism back when we were at the “Catholic Community”. The Independent church had a bookstore and a homeschooling program, a convent, a seminary, a school and a church. I found them on the Internet and called to buy from their bookstore. I have to tell you that I was totally enamored by the girls in below the knee uniforms, boys in blazers and pretty young nuns in full habit. I had never heard of this kind of place.
Little did I know, until talking to a friend, that they denied Rome.

Just like Oz, it was beautiful there. Just like Oz, it was not real. Real Catholic that is.
[/quote]

Yes it has and new people are still posing questions and many people wander it not knowing what’s up. I don’t think you can warn enough.

All that glitters is not gold. Sometimes it’s just glittery. :wink:

I wrote:

I assure you that it would be so much more “comfortable” to take the position of finger-pointers and to be - gutless.

St Gimp wrote:

Or is my stance lacking in courage simply because I do not pile accusation on accusation (even if true) upon their heads?

and

Detraction is the unjust damaging of another’s good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is really guilty or at any rate is seriously believed to be guilty by the defamer.

  1. I repeat and expand: "It would be so much more ‘comfortable’ [for me] to take the position of finger-pointers [or finger-waggers] and to be - gutless"
    If you see that that refers to you - then that is up to you!

  2. “Simply”? No!

  3. The information that I provide is already in the PUBLIC arena; and I do NOT consider it to be “unjust” to point out to the unwary uninformed Catholic or convert the un-Catholic and schismatic utterences of the parties concerned.

  4. Neither would any Soldier of Christ in times past lack the intestinal fortitude to counter the heresies and/or errors of those persecuting the Church at any point in time.

  5. Nor is it detraction (unjust) to admit to the many errors and sins of past (for example) popes - some of whom have been adulterers, fornicators, thieves, a pirate, simoniacs, etc. etc.

  6. Nor is it detraction (or unjust) for the last pope, John-Paul II to apologise for the errors and sins of members of the Church from past times.

  7. Priests of the SSPX ARE members of the SSPX. If you want evidence of Archbishop Lefebvre’s utterances, see

jloughnan.tripod.com/vacilate.htm

[quote=Sean O L]I wrote:

St Gimp wrote:

and

  1. I repeat and expand: "It would be so much more ‘comfortable’ [for me] to take the position of finger-pointers [or finger-waggers] and to be - gutless"
    If you see that that refers to you - then that is up to you!

  2. “Simply”? No!

  3. The information that I provide is already in the PUBLIC arena; and I do NOT consider it to be “unjust” to point out to the unwary uninformed Catholic or convert the un-Catholic and schismatic utterences of the parties concerned.

  4. Neither would any Soldier of Christ in times past lack the intestinal fortitude to counter the heresies and/or errors of those persecuting the Church at any point in time.

  5. Nor is it detraction (unjust) to admit to the many errors and sins of past (for example) popes - some of whom have been adulterers, fornicators, thieves, a pirate, simoniacs, etc. etc.

  6. Nor is it detraction (or unjust) for the last pope, John-Paul II to apologise for the errors and sins of members of the Church from past times.

  7. Priests of the SSPX ARE members of the SSPX. If you want evidence of Archbishop Lefebvre’s utterances, see

jloughnan.tripod.com/vacilate.htm
[/quote]

I for one appreciate the infomation you have given. I think many Catholics in the USA really don’t think SSPX is in schism and the more this is highlighted the more it is likely to get through to them. We should do this because their immortal souls are in danger.

[quote=bear06]Yes it has and new people are still posing questions and many people wander it not knowing what’s up. I don’t think you can warn enough.
[/quote]

I get it! I guess I just haven’t seen too many questions about the SSPX but I must have just missed them. Mea culpa!

All that glitters is not gold. Sometimes it’s just glittery. :wink:

Truer words were never spoken!

Thistle wrote:

I for one appreciate the infomation you have given. I think many Catholics in the USA really don’t think SSPX is in schism and the more this is highlighted the more it is likely to get through to them. We should do this because their immortal souls are in danger.

Thanks, thistle. Quite frankly, I also do this for a couple of other reasons too.

First of all, I am seventy-one years old and am subject to forgetfulness - unless I can retrieve stored data from “old faithful” - the electronic computer. Therefore, I must make copious and meticulous records.

Secondly, as some-one else has pointed out - a new “Indian” (I mean this in a metaphorical sense, of course!) pops out from behind a bush with alarming frequency after having had detailed discussion or debate and closure (one way or another). This becomes very demanding, and it is from necessity that data must be retrieved and composed anew for each “Indian” - thus, there must be “proof-texting.”

And, thirdly, I do this as a penance for my part in the schism for so long. Of course, I commenced with the SSPX in c. 1973, which was while Archbishop Lefebvre was still “in good standing”, and absorbed the SSPX propaganda for many years.

I hate schism; but love the schismatics and desire their return to the Church - as God wills. It is good to know that there have been many of my brothers and sisters who have also acknowledged that they have been helped in their reversions through my associates Bill Grossklas, Shawn McElhinney, Pete Vere and myself.

To those who love the “Indult” mass but don’t like SSPX, SSPV, CMRI and the other independent Roman Catholic TLM Churches:

If it weren’t for these indepentent societies… you would have Never EVER had an “Indult” mass… PERIOD!

To those who love the Novus Ordo and dislike the TLM’ers;

Kiss the Koran, reconcile with the Lutherans on Justification, water down the Catholic doctrines on homosexuality, limbo, original sin, etc. etc. and let the indultarians and conservative Catholics enjoy the diversity that they have attached themselves to.

[quote=warrior71]Wow, you really hate the SSPX don’t you?
[/quote]

He was IN the SSPX.

Sean started this thread because I solicited his help with another thread (as I did Bear06) in which a new poster was trying to explain (once again and agressively) that the SSPX was NOT in schism. I had to get to school to make lesson plans, so I hollered at Sean and Bear. By the time Sean got there, the thread was closed.

I’m grateful that he started this thread. I think it terribly important that innocent seekers not be lead astray by what is arrogant schism. Yes, it’s tiresome that they keep cropping up, with their Koran kissing accusations, but they have to be answered before they drag innocent people into error.

findinghumility,
You wrote (inter alia):

The doctrinal ignorance caused by the Novus Ordo Communion Service can no longer be denied. And if you’re under the dillusion that stricter enforcement of the Rubrics will clean up this mess, then I have a bridge to sell you…

[size=3]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=896692#post896692 [/size]
and repeated the sentiments in,
[http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=920596&postcount=48](“http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=920596&postcount=48”)

and,

[size=3]It’s time for Catholics …to realize that we have been robbed of our faith by the intentional ambiguities of Vatican II and resulting **demolishion **of our Mass, and our sacraments.
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1233669&postcount=9
[/size]
and,

[size=3]Papal authority was relinquished about 40 years ago. The modernism of John XXIII, Paul VI and so forth allowed this to happen by breaking with the (capital “T”) Traditions of the historic Church.

Collegiality has been encouraged by these modernist popes. …

… Well, I have found a Mass where the abominations are not found. Where rubrics are followed. Where reverence for God (NOT respect for persons) is the norm. No, we don’t follow the current pope, but then neither does any of the Novus Ordo clergy nor does most of the Novus Ordo laity (except for the fraction of the laity who deem themselves to be “Conservative” and are fighting to stop the abuses)…
http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=1233639&postcount=4
[/size]
From the above, it is obvious that you are NOT a Catholic in union with the Holy See, and you are NOT an SSPX adherent, but that you ARE an adherent to an “Independent” group.

  1. Would you please advise to what group you adhere, and where you attend Mass?

  2. Would you also please advise whether you deny that the normative liturgy of the Roman Rite (commonly described as the “Novus Ordo”) – whether it be in Latin or the vernacular – is a “true and proper sacrifice” and/or a “propitiary sacrifice”?

Thanks,

If it weren’t for these indepentent societies… you would have Never EVER had an “Indult” mass… PERIOD!

I love the way people know what history would have been like if we had never had schism. This always cracks me up. There seems to be quite a few Mr. Wizards around. :wink:

To those who love the Novus Ordo and dislike the TLM’ers;

Kiss the Koran, reconcile with the Lutherans on Justification, water down the Catholic doctrines on homosexuality, limbo, original sin, etc. etc. and let the indultarians and conservative Catholics enjoy the diversity that they have attached themselves to.

Who, exactly, here doesn’t like “TLMers”? This thread is about whether or not the SSPX is in schism. Why is it that you stray into ad hominum attacks? BTW, if you really detest the above, it seems quite uncharitable to tell us to join in. :eek:

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