Some help please?


#1

Hi,

In a discussion on another forum someone brought up the points below. I was hoping that someone (or multiple someones) could help me to refute the claims and inferences made. This is taken from a MUCH larger thread regarding ‘beefs’ with Catholicism and even his post was MUCH longer. I answered most of his questions but I was having difficulty finding original sources for the claims made.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Eric

  1. The well-known Roman Catholic, Monsignor Capel listed 62 titles for the pope: Most Divine of all Heads/Holy Father of Fathers/Pontiff Supreme over all Prelates/Christ by Unction!/Key-Bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven/Vicar of Christ/ Head of all the Holy Churches/Chief of the Universal Church/Ruler of the House of the Lord/Apostolic Lord and Father of Fathers/Infallible Pope, etc. (No pope has chastised or shyed away from accepting these blasphemous titles)

  2. Pope Boniface VIII gave a decree: “We declare, say, define, pronounce it necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.”

  3. Referring to the reign of Leo X, the fifth session of the Council of Lateran said: “Weep not, daughter of Zion, for behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David: behold, God hath raised thee up a savior.”

  4. The Ferraris’ Ecclesiastical Dictionary, the word “papa” (pope) is described: “The pope is of such dignity and highness that he is not simply a man but, as it were, God, and the vicar {representative} of God…He is of such great dignity and power that he occupies one and the same tribunal with Christ; so that whatsoever the pope does seems to proceed from the mouth of God…The pope is, as it were, God on earth, the only prince of the faithful of Christ…The pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, declare or interpret the divine law. The pope can sometimes counteract the divine law by limiting, explaining, etc.”
    (He shall think to change times and laws."-Dan. 7:25)

  5. Pope Nicholas: “It is to be presumed that the bishop of that church (the pope himself) is always good and holy. Yea, though he fall into homicide or adultery, he may sin, but yet he canot be accused, but rather excused by the nurders of Samson, the thefts of the Hebrews, etc. …I am able to do almost all that God can do. In all things that I list my will is to stand for reason, for I am able by the law to dispense above the law, and of wrong to make justice in correcting laws and changing them. Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, What can you make me but God? (!!!)…It is in my power to…dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ;…”

  6. Pope Martin: Do not I, Pope Martin, in my distinction, inhibit the spiritual clergy to be present at marriage-feasts, and also to marry? …What should I speak of nurder, making it to be no murder or homicide to slay them that be excommunicated?..Also against the canons of the apostles, I can and do dispense; for where they, in their canon, command a priest for fornication to be disposed, I through the authority of Sylvester, do alter the rigor of that constitution, considering the minds and bodies also of men now to be weaker than they were then. (btw, this is when the “F” word was invented. It was an acronym for Fornication Under Catholic something or another.)

  7. When a new pope is installed, part of the ceremony is “The Adoration”. During the adoration, the newly elected pope, dressed in white, decked out with beautiful and multitudinous precious stones is brought to the altar, he kneels, then with his mitre on his head rises and is physically hoisted up by the aging cardinals and placed on the altar-throne to sit. A bishop kneels singing “Te Deum” (We praise thee, O God). The other cardinals kiss the popes’ feet, hands, and face, put a Papal minted coin with the words, “Whom they create, they adore” before the pope.


#2

help with what?
a bunch of random claims with no source, no attribution, no authority? if you are debating someone challenge them to provide an authorotative source that can be examined. also on the wrong forum has nothing to do with sacred scripture.


#3

Thank you for the response. Sorry for posting in the wrong forum. I asked for citations. I will see if they were offered.

Eric


#4

Hi Eric, have you ever read the book Pope Fiction?

  1. The well-known Roman Catholic, Monsignor Capel listed 62 titles for the pope: Most Divine of all Heads/Holy Father of Fathers/Pontiff Supreme over all Prelates/Christ by Unction!/Key-Bearer of the Kingdom of Heaven/Vicar of Christ/ Head of all the Holy Churches/Chief of the Universal Church/Ruler of the House of the Lord/Apostolic Lord and Father of Fathers/Infallible Pope, etc. (No pope has chastised or shyed away from accepting these blasphemous titles)

Ask him to define Blasphemy, and exactly which of those titles makes the pope out to be God? Lord can simply have the meaning of master. Also, for every charge demand sources.

  1. Pope Boniface VIII gave a decree: “We declare, say, define, pronounce it necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff.”

ask them to explain the historical context of this saying.

  1. Referring to the reign of Leo X, the fifth session of the Council of Lateran said: “Weep not, daughter of Zion, for behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David: behold, God hath raised thee up a savior.”

“Lion of tribe of Judah”, “root of David” are titles for Christ therefore demand the primary historical source. I have no doubt those words were said, but what was the context, by whom, and how were those words understood by those who heard them at that time.

  1. The Ferraris’ Ecclesiastical Dictionary, the word “papa” (pope) is described: “The pope is of such dignity and highness that he is not simply a man but, as it were, God, and the vicar {representative} of God…He is of such great dignity and power that he occupies one and the same tribunal with Christ; so that whatsoever the pope does seems to proceed from the mouth of God…The pope is, as it were, God on earth, the only prince of the faithful of Christ…The pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, declare or interpret the divine law. The pope can sometimes counteract the divine law by limiting, explaining, etc.”
    (He shall think to change times and laws."-Dan. 7:25)

This is an old Seventh Day Adventist argument. Yes, the book referred to does say that, but it is all based on a forged document called the domination of constantine that has been rejected by historians for quite some time now.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=domination+of+constantine+forgery

  1. Pope Nicholas: “It is to be presumed that the bishop of that church (the pope himself) is always good and holy. Yea, though he fall into homicide or adultery, he may sin, but yet he canot be accused, but rather excused by the nurders of Samson, the thefts of the Hebrews, etc. …I am able to do almost all that God can do. In all things that I list my will is to stand for reason, for I am able by the law to dispense above the law, and of wrong to make justice in correcting laws and changing them. Wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, What can you make me but God? (!!!)…It is in my power to…dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ;…”
  1. Pope Martin: Do not I, Pope Martin, in my distinction, inhibit the spiritual clergy to be present at marriage-feasts, and also to marry? …What should I speak of nurder, making it to be no murder or homicide to slay them that be excommunicated?..Also against the canons of the apostles, I can and do dispense; for where they, in their canon, command a priest for fornication to be disposed, I through the authority of Sylvester, do alter the rigor of that constitution, considering the minds and bodies also of men now to be weaker than they were then. (btw, this is when the “F” word was invented. It was an acronym for Fornication Under Catholic something or another.)
  1. When a new pope is installed, part of the ceremony is “The Adoration”. During the adoration, the newly elected pope, dressed in white, decked out with beautiful and multitudinous precious stones is brought to the altar, he kneels, then with his mitre on his head rises and is physically hoisted up by the aging cardinals and placed on the altar-throne to sit. A bishop kneels singing “Te Deum” (We praise thee, O God). The other cardinals kiss the popes’ feet, hands, and face, put a Papal minted coin with the words, “Whom they create, they adore” before the pope.

Proof please, historical sources, demand a link to the website where this is claimed to be true. You will see that many of the above will link to anti-catholic sites and will lack propper documentation, and referrences to primary sources.

Often laugher is the best refutation of such claims.

:rolleyes:


#5

Why do I get the distinct feeling that Eric is just trying to stir up strife?

Or am I only being paranoid?


#6

Daniel,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate you taking the time.

I haven’t read Pope Fiction. Would you recommend it?

Thanks again,

Eric


#7

You are being paranoid. You can find the thread where I am having the discussion with the individual here:

abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread296306/pg1

Eric


#8

Yes, I would recommend it because it does cover some of the basic misinformation like in those claims that started this thread.


#9

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.