Some Popes not Saved?

I’ll start by clarifying that I don’t declare anyone’s salvation - not for me to do.

But in looking back at the lives of some popes, they don’t seem to display things the scriptures lay out for salvation.

Is it possible some popes are not in Heaven?

Markie, it’s certainly possible, but speculation is never very wise.

My philosophy has always been to live my faith to the best of my ability and pray for grace and mercy for myself and others.

Keep in mind that the failings of individual Catholics do not invalidate the truths of the Catholic Church any more than similar failings by anyone else invalidate the faith of faithful Christians of whatever community they come from.

That’s like saying that because some of us sometimes get math equations wrong that invalidates mathematical truth. See the problem with that thinking?

Take care my friend.:slight_smile:

Election to the throne of Saint Peter does not make one a saint. Those who have held it remain sinners. QED.

ICXC NIKA

The “Pope” , although the “head of the church” is often referred to as “first among equals.” He in fact is the Bishop of Rome. The following regarding “Bishops” may help answer your question:

Testimony of Fr. Maniyangat, Motorcycle Priest revived from death
Question from anon on 3/17/2011:

" A priest who saw heaven, hell, and purgatory 09/02/10 at 23:45:59 The following is not a story coming out of the rumor mill. The priest whose testimony is given below is the pastor of a Catholic Church in Florida. The testimony is on the website of the parish.

A priest who saw heaven, hell, and purgatory The death experience of Father Jose Maniyangat Francais-Espanol Fr. Jose Maniyangat is currently the pastor of St. Mary’s Mother of Mercy Catholic Church in Macclenny, Florida. Here is his personal testimony:

I was born on July 16, 1949 in Kerala, India to my parents, Joseph and Theresa Maniyangat. I am the eldest of seven children: Jose, Mary, Theresa, Lissama, Zachariah, Valsa and Tom… At the age of fourteen, I entered St. Mary’s Minor Seminary in Thiruvalla to begin my studies for the priesthood. Four years later, I went to St. Joseph’s Pontifical Major Seminary in Alwaye, Kerala to continue my priestly formation. After completing the seven years of philosophy and theology, I was ordained a priest on January 1, 1975 to serve as a missionary in the Diocese of Thiruvalla. On Sunday April 14, 1985, the Feast of the Divine Mercy, I was going to celebrate Mass at a mission church in the north part of Kerala, and I had a fatal accident. I was riding a motorcycle when I was hit head-on by a jeep driven by a man who was intoxicated after a Hindu festival. I was rushed to a hospital about 35 miles away. On the way, my soul came out from my body and I experienced death. Immediately, I met my Guardian Angel. I saw my body and the people who were carrying me to the hospital. I heard them crying and praying for me. At this time my angel told me: “I am going to take you to Heaven, the Lord wants to meet you and talk with you.” He also said that, on the way, he wanted to show me hell and purgatory.

Hell First, the angel escorted me to hell. It was an awful sight! I saw Satan and the devils, an unquenchable fire of about 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, worms crawling, people screaming and fighting, others being tortured by demons. The angel told me that all these sufferings were due to unrepented mortal sins. Then, I understood that there are seven degrees of suffering or levels according to the number and kinds of mortal sins committed in their earthly lives. The souls looked very ugly, cruel and horrific. It was a fearful experience. I saw people whom I knew, but I am not allowed to reveal their identities. The sins that convicted them were mainly abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, hatefulness, unforgiveness and sacrilege. The angel told me that if they had repented, they would have avoided hell and gone instead to purgatory. I also understood that some people who repent from these sins might be purified on earth through their sufferings. This way they can avoid purgatory and go straight to heaven.** I was surprised when I saw in hell even priests and Bishops, some of whom I never expected to see**. Many of them were there because they had misled the people with false teaching and bad example."

More: ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=604990

Granted; this is merely private revelation, but interesting.

I note he didn’t see any deacons, but of course not!!!:wink:

I see what you are saying - no further reply needed - and it makes sense. I feel like a kid that keeps needing help with the same homework!

“My philosophy has always been to live my faith to the best of my ability and pray for grace and mercy for myself and others.” - I need to grow and change so I see things in this light - any recommendations?

Thanks again Church Militant!

[size=2]This kind of speculation is not very profitable and in fact dangerous.

Paraphrasing from the end of John:
“Lord, what about this man?”
“What is that to you? You follow me!”

Personally, I have enough trouble with ME.
[/size]

(my embolding)

SMOM - I see a few of mine on that list - food for thought, thank you!

:blush: I am an unworthy servant. I have only done my duty. (Luke 17:10)

Don’t worry Brother, we all wonder about stuff from time to time.

What can I suggest?
Read your Bible consistently and spend some time in prayer each day. Tell God what is going on with you and realize up front that He already knows, but never tires of you because He loves you.

Always keep in mind the terrible price that He paid in Jesus suffering and death on the cross. That’s why we should love our crucifixes. To me they are very powerful witnesses of just how much God loves me because Jesus endured all of that for me …and you. I often find myself praying the same way King David does in the Psalms and especially Psalm 144. (the whole Psalm is one of my favorites)
[3] O LORD, what is man that thou dost regard him,
or the son of man that thou dost think of him?
[4] Man is like a breath,
his days are like a passing shadow.

I ask him “Who am I that you should die for me? Who am I that you take any interest in me at all?” But that crucifix is undeniable my dear friend and whether I understand Him or not matters not at all to Him and does not hamper his love and mercy for me that makes me a better person day by day.

One thing that I love is memorizing great prayers that say the things that I find myself needing to say to God.
Some of my favorites are the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Anima Christi, and the St. Michael prayer just to name a few. At different times during my day I find myself praying them or parts of the Divine Mercy Chaplet. It’s become about as normal for me as breathing which I can only attribute to the working of the Holy Spirit within me since I was not always like this.

I promise to include you in my prayers and remembrances at Mass. May the Lord bring forth great fruit from His working within you.:gopray2:
:signofcross:

Great post! :slight_smile:

That said, the great poet Dante did amuse himself by placing Boniface VIII in Hell; however, hindsight suggests that Boniface got a bum rap, if you’ll pardon the slang. I think “presumed innocent” is a good approach to take, even if a Pope gets a bad name in history books; remember, no history is truly neutral. :slight_smile:

Don’t forget last rites.

Excellent.

“I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.”
– St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople (Homily III on Acts 1:12)

Since the Church does not know the state of a person’s heart at the moment of death, she has never declared a single person to be in hell. And, will not.

Exactly. :thumbsup: The Church teaches that Hell is real, and that it is not “empty”, but has never officially pronounced that anyone is there. (The only possible exception might be Judas; there is a long tradition among the Church Fathers, based on John 17, that he is damned - but even that is not official teaching. ;))

Considering that there have been popes in the past who reportedly had mistresses, committed murder, raped, and stole money from the church…it’s very possible.

.

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