Some questions

An update about me. My wife accused me of being stubborn and selfish for wanting to convert to the catholic church. She mentioned the following to me:

(1)Is it true that the Catholic Church sold the indulge for salvation? Someone told me that this is what Luther spoke out against concerning the Catholic Church.

(2) Why does it have to be in the room and why do you have to be told by priest.where in bible say that. Is it the only way to be saved(Absolution/Sacrament of Reconcilation) if you commit a mortal sin? Or any kind of sin?

(3) Why is a protestant church wrong to attend?

(4) “The priest preached that those those who purchased indulgence would escape punishment for their sins.
And collected lots of money which was wrong.
That’s why Catholic Church is so extravagant and priest are well dressed”

(5)If you don’t mind your offering are used for maintaining the sparkling looking church equipments.

Can we address these points please. Much appreciated.

She asked me why I had to convert now and not just wait 18 years from now when our son turns 18 and moves out or after becoming an adult. And that I am self-centred and subborn for wanting to convert now.

Cyril Of Canada 31#1
Is it true that the Catholic Church sold the indulge for salvation? Someone told me that this is what Luther spoke out against concerning the Catholic Church.

One never could “buy” indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms – indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V cancelled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.

Why does it have to be in the room and why do you have to be told by priest.where in bible say that. Is it the only way to be saved(Absolution/Sacrament of Reconcilation) if you commit a mortal sin? Or any kind of sin?

Christ gave His Apostles the power to forgive sins – the sacrament instituted by Christ Himself has to be administered by an ordained priest. For the Christ commissioned His Apostles: “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” [Jn 20:22-23].

Why is a protestant church wrong to attend?

Christ’s Catholic Church has all seven sacraments, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and Christ’s Magisterium (teaching authority) which Protestant sects lack. So the fullness of Christ’s teaching and sacraments are missing. Why go for less than Christ gave us?

The other points you mention are not important.

  1. Indulgences are not “for salvation.” You need to read some history.

  2. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is right because it was created by God for us.

  3. Protestant churches are not necessarily wrong. They do lack the fullness of truth and lack all seven Sacraments.

  4. The Catholic Church is not wealthy. On a per capita basis many Protestant churches are much wealthier. Catholic clergy are certainly not wealthy. Ask yourself why the enemies of the Church feel the need to make up such nonsense.

Really!?! She thinks the priest is well dressed?:rolleyes:

The black uniform never looked expensive to me.:blush:

As far as the church looking royal, it is true that the space was made for God himself to reside in. Maybe you could point her to Exodus where God himself tells Moses how to construct the tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant. It is not like we made this stuff up…

Welcome.

I would recommend the following MP3s.

Sword of the Spirit - Tim gives a great overview of the questions you are asking as well as other questions she will probably hit you with next. You can listen to it in a day. I’ve listened to it 6 times now.
shop.catholic.com/catholic-digital-media/audio/the-sword-of-the-spirit-set.html

If you want to know more than you thought you could ever learn on indulgences I would recommend God’s Perfect Plan. This one was deep, I did have to listen to it a second time to really get the understandings on the Church’s teachings.
shop.catholic.com/catholic-digital-media/audio/god-s-perfect-plan-purgatory-and-indulgences-explained-set.html

When it comes to the financial issue I am afraid your wife is listening to people that are being unkind and misinformed.

If you would like an overview of what the Catholic Church has done with her money here is a good video to watch.
youtube.com/watch?v=1QYeST_9FUg

On a side note, I have a feeling you will have a lot of questions in the months to come. Well you came to the right place. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this site. Please keep coming back with any questions you will have, but I would recommend starting a new thread for each question in the future. It will allow everyone to really concentrate on each question and better direct you to the answers you seek.

God Bless

No, indulgences don’t save anyone, Jesus does. But Jesus gave the church the power to loose and bind (Matthew 16:19) The holy souls in purgatory are in favor of indulgences as it benefits them. And we know those souls are already 100% guaranteed to go to heaven whether they receive indulgences or not.

(2) Why does it have to be in the room and why do you have to be told by priest.where in bible say that. Is it the only way to be saved(Absolution/Sacrament of Reconcilation) if you commit a mortal sin? Or any kind of sin?

Everything is not in the bible. And the the bible, itself, came from apostolic tradition. It’s a Catholic book.I ask protestants how were the apostles supposed to forgive or retain sins unless they are hearing them first? (John 20:21-23) I’ve never seen a rational explanation for that scripture. Just obfuscation.

(3) Why is a protestant church wrong to attend?

I don’t think it is, but it doesn’t fulfill our obligation for Sunday Mass. And you should not take communion in those churches because you are saying you believe in what they teach by accepting their communion. My sponsor was a former Pentecostal and his wife Catholic…and they attended each other’s services for years before he converted. Jesus said there was going to be division in our own households. (Luke 12:51-53)

(4) “The priest preached that those those who purchased indulgence would escape punishment for their sins.
And collected lots of money which was wrong.
That’s why Catholic Church is so extravagant and priest are well dressed”

No, the vestments date back to the old testament. Jesus did not say he was throwing out all practices and everything Jewish. (John 4:22) He came to fulfill, not destroy (Matthew 5:17)

(5)If you don’t mind your offering are used for maintaining the sparkling looking church equipments.

Can we address these points please. Much appreciated.

It’s called divine liturgy. It gives us a picture of Heaven.:

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/liturgy%20of%20the%20mass%20in%20the%20book%20of%20revelation.htm

People used to be, for the most part, illiterate. So the church provided images of Jesus, heaven and saints for people to understand and absorb what was being said in the Mass.

The Catholic church does more charitable work and good in this world than any other Christian organization in existence, imo. You need something like counseling in your time of need? Don’t have much money? The church will help you out, and they wont even ask you to convert!

If you feel called to the Church and are convinced in your heart she is the true Church established by Jesus, then converting is the only option, IMO. But you can do it respectfully and with gentleness and love.

The Lord be with you!

What about the accusation popes sold indulgances to pay for a basilla? And any source that details what the indulgance money went to(hospitals, feeding the poor) for example? I need a credible source to back up my claims about indulgances and help dispel the lies and misinformation by lutherans and protestants.

Are indulgances still sold today? What happened to the abusers of indulgances in Luther’s time after reforms were made and Counsel Of Trent?

People sometimes act independently, unfortunately:

catholic.com/quickquestions/does-the-catholic-church-still-sell-indulgences

Full Question

One of the causes of the Reformation was the selling of indulgences. Does the Catholic Church still sell them?

Answer

That’s like asking, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences. This is to be distinguished from the undeniable fact that individual Catholics (perhaps the best known of them being the German Dominican Johann Tetzel [1465-1519]) did sell indulgences–but in doing so they acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. This practice is utterly opposed to the Catholic Church’s teaching on indulgences, and it cannot be regarded as a teaching or practice of the Church.

In the 16th century, when the abuse of indulgences was at its height, Cardinal Cajetan (Tommaso de Vio, 1469-1534) wrote about the problem: “Preachers act in the name of the Church so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray.”

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) issued a decree that gave Church teaching on indulgences and that provided stringent guidelines to eliminate abuses:

I know from experience that going through the Church on matters can take a long time. That’s the case now, so must have been snail like in Luther’s time. But had he been more patient I think the explanation given to him by the Church would have satisfied him. But instead things spiraled out of control, unfortunately.

Indulgences were never sold. You didn’'t pay $20 for $20 years penance worth of purgatory. You previously could gain an indulgence by doing a charitible work, such as giving alms to the poor, or even by donating money to a Church’s construction, both of which are good things in and of themselves, if you were properly disposed and did so with the right sense of penance and contrition (and let’s be clear that indulgences have nothing to do with salvation – indulgences cannot save you from Hell – but with the remission of temporal punishment for already forgiven sins by doing something that better conforms oneself to Christ).

The Church still grants indulgences, but no longer for anything involving money, due to the controversy and abuses that came about in the fifteenth and sixteenth century. I could donate $1,000,000 to a house for the poor now, and I would not gain an indulgence for it, let alone donate to the construction of a new Church. Nowadays it’s for things like prayerfully reading a Bible, or praying, or visiting certain sites for edification, with the right disposition, recently gone to confession and receiving the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Indulgences were offered for charitable donations for the reconstruction of Saint Peter’s in Rome, too, which again, in and of itself is not a bad thing. Aggressive and misleading marketing practices by some corrupt priests, particularly in northern Europe, angered Christians, and rightfully so. And such abuses were forcibly condemned by the Church, especially at Trent.

Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (cf. Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23), and she has even in the earliest times made use of that power divinely given to her, the holy council teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to the Christian people and approved by the authority of the holy councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns with anathema those who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.

In granting them, however, it desires that in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church moderation be observed, lest by too great facility ecclesiastical discipline be weakened. But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, and by any reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected, it ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the Christian people, be absolutely abolished. Other abuses, however, of this kind which have sprung from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatever other sources, since by reason of the manifold corruptions in places and provinces where they are committed, they cannot conveniently be prohibited individually, it commands all bishops diligently to make note of, each in his own church, and report them to the next provincial synod. (Sess. 25, Decree on Indulgences)

Catholics do not deny that their were abuses with indulgences. Protestants frequently mischaracterized what indulgences are and the history of the doctrines related to it, too. But there is nothing doctrinally unsound with indulgences.

(1) Your understanding of indulgences and the history of indulgences during the Reformation is off.

See these links:

catholic.com/quickquestions/does-the-catholic-church-still-sell-indulgences

catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences

catholic.com/radio/shows/how-the-reformation-happened-6358

(2) Also understand that there will be sinners in the Church. The church on Earth is not exempt from sin: All of us are on our way to becoming more and more Christlike. If anyone says that their church is without sin or sinners, they are lying. Jesus chose 12 Apostles to be his closest disciples: And one betrayed him. The leader of the 12, Peter, denied him!

Throughout the history of the church, there will be sinners. Even Popes – like the first one, Peter. God does not promise to have a sinless church full of sinless church leaders. If he did, that would compromise his gift of free will; God will not force anyone – not even a bishop, priest, or pope – to love him.

But God did promise that his church would teach the world the truth. This, we can be assured that the Holy Spirit protects the church: From error and false teaching.

(3) So even if this priest or that pope did something scandalous, we must ask the question: What is the significance to the Christian faith? We do not follow the bad example of such men; but we do follow the correct teaching that Christ gives us through them.

Look over these:

catholic.com/video/scandals-caused-me-to-leave-the-church

catholic.com/video/what-about-the-bad-popes

I might help us to know your wife’s background - where she is coming from regarding these questions.

You need to carefully read and have her read this. Johann Tetzel
Also:
Does the Catholic Church still sell indulgences?
A Crisis of Saints

(2) Why does it have to be in the room and why do you have to be told by priest.where in bible say that. Is it the only way to be saved(Absolution/Sacrament of Reconcilation) if you commit a mortal sin? Or any kind of sin?

Okay there are several good sources for this.
Catholic Confession
Scriptures About Penance
Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?
Why did the Church start using a confessional screen?

(3) Why is a protestant church wrong to attend?

This is actually pretty simple. If I know that they teach false and unbiblical doctrines, then why would I want to go there? Worse yet, many of them do not consider Catholics to be Christians and will make a strong effort to proselytize us away from our faith. Again, why go there?

(4) “The priest preached that those those who purchased indulgence would escape punishment for their sins.
And collected lots of money which was wrong.
That’s why Catholic Church is so extravagant and priest are well dressed”

That’s complete hogwash. Most of the priests I know dress very conservatively and in point of fact, it is most of the n-C preachers I see on TV who are dressed up so fancy. (For example, ever see Joseph Prince on TV?) The church has many beautiful churches because God deserves the best we can offer even as He did when the Jews built the temple at His command. Most n-Cs haven’t even existed for more than 5 centuries and most a lot less, while Catholics have been around since the ascension of Our Lord and so have a 2,000 year history and some of our churches have existed for many centuries longer than any n-Cs. Show her these.
Shouldn’t the Church sell off its artifacts?
** Is luxurious living a sin?**
** When is trying to make money working for mammon?**
** Is it a sin to be rich?**

(5)If you don’t mind your offering are used for maintaining the sparkling looking church equipments.

Again this is specious propaganda. Not all Catholic Churches are that way. (Tell her to go to Limon, Costa Rica and visit the Cathedral downtown. It’s beautiful but far from extravagant.

Can we address these points please. Much appreciated.

No problem! :thumbsup:

She asked me why I had to convert now and not just wait 18 years from now when our son turns 18 and moves out or after becoming an adult. And that I am self-centred and subborn for wanting to convert now.

You might ask her why she insists on being so obstinately anti-Catholic and unable to comprehend the depths of your faith and the truth of the Catholic Church. Her argument is specious in that it makes an effort to make you feel like the bad guy. Tell her that her very Biblical answer can be found in Acts 5: [29] ***But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.


I hope you both show each other patience. Protestants, as you likely know, are taught very misleading things about Catholics, so it stands to reason she would react in this manner.

Scott Haun went through something very similar as you are and gave presentations describing his conversion. He mentioned to his wife the Catholic mass contains three scripture readings. This is often news to Protestants who are told there is no emphasis on scripture in the Catholic Church. I highly recommend you listen to his presentation as well as EWTN’s The Journey Home program (it’s easy to find on Youtube).

John 20 refers to the initiation of the sacrament confession.

The Protestant Church originated in 16th century Germany, not first century Israel. Martin Luther was not commissioned by Jesus Christ and the apostles to start a church and create a new doctrine. Martin Luther wrote the five solas by his own ‘authority’.

In addition to the negative impacts of schism in Christ’s church (see writings of Ignatius of Antioch from the 1st century), certain Protestant doctrines can lead to grave matters - such as ‘once saved, always saved’.

The others hit it on the head - indulgences are not related to salvation. Did the church accept donations as part of the process of indulgence? Yes. Anyone is free to donate to the Church. It is not a requirement. indulgence involves prayer, adoration, repentance, sacraments, and the like. It is a spiritual exercise related to temporal punishment (e.g. David experienced temporal punishment for his sin).

So what?

Our taxes are used to maintain sparkling looking government buildings, monuments and such things. It’s no different.

Nobody wants to worship in a dump?

-Tim-

:thumbsup:

Most Protestants are told that Catholics worship statues and commit idolatry.

They also rationalize going to church for reasons of fellowship only - e.g. not to worship or be in the presence of the Eucharist by way of the authoritative church that Christ founded.

So - they make their places of fellowship as plain as possible. It can be a gymnasium or a meeting hall. If they have statues, a crucifix, artwork, or anything of beauty, it becomes too Catholic and supposedly takes the focus off Jesus.

In other words, beauty in a church and Jesus cannot co-exist for these folks.

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