Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, Jesus is God.


#1

I believe that the claim that Jesus is God is overt in the Gospels, but that we don't see it because we don't look at the Gospels as a Jew in the first century would have.

One of the ways in which the authors of scripture tell us that Jesus is God is through an overt reference to the very first verses of the Hebrew Scriptures.

**In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2)

He woke up, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Quiet! Be still!” The wind ceased and there was great calm. Then he asked them, “Why are you terrified? Do you not yet have faith?” They were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this whom even wind and sea obey?” (Mark 4:39-41)*

In Genesis 1, God creates Heaven and earth, and in so doing, wields absolute power over wind and water. I believe that Mark's placement of Jesus in a power of absolute authority over wind and sea was overt, and that Jews who were knowledgeable about the Hebrew scriptures would have recognized the reference. I believe that this passage, and parallel passages in the other Gospels, were clear statements of Jesus divinity - that he was the same God who created Heaven and earth in the book of Genesis.

Mark and the other Gospel authors use similar techniques, references to Genesis and God's power to create, to tell their audiences that Jesus is in fact God.

**Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”* (Mark 2:27:28)*

The sabbath was of divine origin, created by God on the seventh day when God rested, and given by God as a gift to mankind. To claim that you were "lord of the sabbath" was to claim that you were the creator of the sabbath, and that you had authority over the sabbath. Again, the Jews would have recognized this as a clear indication that Jesus claimed to be the same God who created the Sabbath for man in Genesis 2:1-3.

Similarly, Jesus' cleansing of the temple in Mark 11:17 was a sign that he had authority over the temple. Jesus claim that "Something greater than the temple is here" in Matthew 12:6 would have been especially shocking. To a Jew in the first century, the Temple was the center of the universe, where God dwelt with men, and to say that you were greater than the temple was to claim that you were God.

This is why the chief priests and scribes sought to kill Jesus for blasphemy, because to a Jew, these were clear claims by Jesus that he was divine, that he was in fact the same God (consubstantial?) who created Heaven and earth, the sabbath, and the temple.

-Tim-


#2

:thumbsup:


#3

AMEN

:bounce:


#4

I myself still can't figure out how any faith can claim to believe in the Bible, have the Gospel of St. John in there, and not believe Christ is God.


#5

[quote="TimothyH, post:1, topic:296474"]
I believe that the claim that Jesus is God is overt in the Gospels, but that we don't see it because we don't look at the Gospels as a Jew in the first century would have.

One of the ways in which the authors of scripture tell us that Jesus is God is through an overt reference to the very first verses of the Hebrew Scriptures.

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2)

He woke up, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Quiet! Be still!” The wind ceased and there was great calm*. Then he asked them, “Why are you terrified? Do you not yet have faith?” They were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this whom even wind and sea obey?” (Mark 4:39-41)

In Genesis 1, God creates Heaven and earth, and in so doing, wields absolute power over wind and water. I believe that Mark's placement of Jesus in a power of absolute authority over wind and sea was overt, and that Jews who were knowledgeable about the Hebrew scriptures would have recognized the reference. I believe that this passage, and parallel passages in the other Gospels, were clear statements of Jesus divinity - that he was the same God who created Heaven and earth in the book of Genesis.

Mark and the other Gospel authors use similar techniques, references to Genesis and God's power to create, to tell their audiences that Jesus is in fact God.

Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.” (Mark 2:27:28)

The sabbath was of divine origin, created by God on the seventh day when God rested, and given by God as a gift to mankind. To claim that you were "lord of the sabbath" was to claim that you were the creator of the sabbath, and that you had authority over the sabbath. Again, the Jews would have recognized this as a clear indication that Jesus claimed to be the same God who created the Sabbath for man in Genesis 2:1-3.

Similarly, Jesus' cleansing of the temple in Mark 11:17 was a sign that he had authority over the temple. Jesus claim that "Something greater than the temple is here" in Matthew 12:6 would have been especially shocking. To a Jew in the first century, the Temple was the center of the universe, where God dwelt with men, and to say that you were greater than the temple was to claim that you were God.

This is why the chief priests and scribes sought to kill Jesus for blasphemy, because to a Jew, these were clear claims by Jesus that he was divine, that he was in fact the same God (consubstantial?) who created Heaven and earth, the sabbath, and the temple.

-Tim-

[/quote]

Latter-day Saints do believe that Jesus Christ is God. (No apology required.:))

You are correct that it was Jesus Christ who appeared unto Moses. When Jesus told the Jews: "before Abraham was I AM" the Jews immediately picked up stones to cast at him. (John 8:56-59) Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the God of Jacob who was called "the Shepherd, the stone of Israel." (Gen. 49:24) Jesus Christ is the mediator between God (the Father) and man. (1 Tim 2:5) Jesus often speaks to man using the words from the Father. (John 14:24) In other words Jesus appears to man and speaks on behalf of the Father as he did in the Old Testament. There are a number of reports from the Old Testament of men who saw God, (Moses, Jacob and others). However, it was Jesus Christ whom they had seen. The testimony of John the Baptist may help us understand this concept:

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.


#6

[quote="TimothyH, post:1, topic:296474"]
I believe that the claim that Jesus is God is overt in the Gospels, but that we don't see it because we don't look at the Gospels as a Jew in the first century would have.

One of the ways in which the authors of scripture tell us that Jesus is God is through an overt reference to the very first verses of the Hebrew Scriptures.

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2)

He woke up, rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Quiet! Be still!” The wind ceased and there was great calm*. Then he asked them, “Why are you terrified? Do you not yet have faith?” They were filled with great awe and said to one another, “Who then is this whom even wind and sea obey?” (Mark 4:39-41)

In Genesis 1, God creates Heaven and earth, and in so doing, wields absolute power over wind and water. I believe that Mark's placement of Jesus in a power of absolute authority over wind and sea was overt, and that Jews who were knowledgeable about the Hebrew scriptures would have recognized the reference. I believe that this passage, and parallel passages in the other Gospels, were clear statements of Jesus divinity - that he was the same God who created Heaven and earth in the book of Genesis.

Mark and the other Gospel authors use similar techniques, references to Genesis and God's power to create, to tell their audiences that Jesus is in fact God.

Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.” (Mark 2:27:28)

The sabbath was of divine origin, created by God on the seventh day when God rested, and given by God as a gift to mankind. To claim that you were "lord of the sabbath" was to claim that you were the creator of the sabbath, and that you had authority over the sabbath. Again, the Jews would have recognized this as a clear indication that Jesus claimed to be the same God who created the Sabbath for man in Genesis 2:1-3.

Similarly, Jesus' cleansing of the temple in Mark 11:17 was a sign that he had authority over the temple. Jesus claim that "Something greater than the temple is here" in Matthew 12:6 would have been especially shocking. To a Jew in the first century, the Temple was the center of the universe, where God dwelt with men, and to say that you were greater than the temple was to claim that you were God.

This is why the chief priests and scribes sought to kill Jesus for blasphemy, because to a Jew, these were clear claims by Jesus that he was divine, that he was in fact the same God (consubstantial?) who created Heaven and earth, the sabbath, and the temple.

-Tim-

[/quote]

More important, if JW's believe Jesus is the archangel Michael and a perfect creature and not God;then I am curious why the twelve Apostles were not telling people Jesus IS NOT GOD? Why not teach Jesus is merely a perfect creature and Michael the archangel incarnated as Jesus?


#7

Mormons would agree with you that Jesus is God. I don't think the Jehovah's Witnesses would agree with you on that though. The thing that makes the Mormon's doctrine unorthodox though is that they believe the Father is a god, the Son is a god, and the Holy Spirit is a god: three gods and not one united and Trinitarian God.


#8

The LDS agree that Jesus is the divine creator: "And to make all men see what is the followship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:9)


#9

according to Mormons Jesus is a brother of Satan, who is also god
and they (the mormons) are as God once was and will be as God is now,
e.g. will become gods
although our Father in Heaven remains the Most High God for all
AND
in order to be exalted to the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom
even the Heavenly Father has MANY wifes :eek:

Their jesus is not our Jesus, like JW's jesus is not our Jesus
even the Unitarians have a different jesus, not our Jesus
and since they don't have the (real) Son, they also don't have the (real) Father
and since they refuse to acknowledge Jesus who He really is
they will Die in their sins

Any Mormon, Unitarian or JW, please consider this:
You have been deceived, pray and ask
We will continue to pray for you


#10

And yet reject the Trinity-correct?


#11

[quote="Nicea325, post:10, topic:296474"]
And yet reject the Trinity-correct?

[/quote]

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.- Joseph Smith

We worship God the Eternal Father and pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. When Jesus prayed to His Father who was in heaven Jesus called the Father "the only true God." (John 17:3) We believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God deriving authority from the father to follow the plan of the Father. We believe they are of one authority and purpose but not "of the same substance."


#12

Christ is not the creator of ALL things in Mormon doctrine. He is a created being. They believe that Elohim and Jehovah are two separate Gods even though the Hebrew clearly contradicts that notion. They believe Christ is a god but not THE GOD. Also, when referring to creation, Christ was not alone in creating, ( I mean organizing, the Mormon God can not create something out of nothing, ex nihilio, but rather can just organize pre-existing matter). Christ was joined by the great and noble ones which General Authorities of the LDS Church have speculated about. Many believe Joseph Smith had a hand in creation as well. I had one institute teacher tell me that because I liked animals so much, I probably had a hand in creating them lol. That is all speculation of course but in terms of doctrine, Christ was not alone in the creation of the Universe. In fact, the temple ceremony clearly states that Adam (who was Michael the Archangel before he came to earth) assisted Jehovah (Jesus) in carrying out God's (Elohim) plan to organize a world.

[quote="mtolympus, post:11, topic:296474"]
We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.- Joseph Smith

We worship God the Eternal Father and pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. When Jesus prayed to His Father who was in heaven Jesus called the Father "the only true God." (John 17:3) We believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God deriving authority from the father to follow the plan of the Father. We believe they are of one authority and purpose but not "of the same substance."

[/quote]


#13

[quote="mtolympus, post:11, topic:296474"]
We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.- Joseph Smith

We worship God the Eternal Father and pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. When Jesus prayed to His Father who was in heaven Jesus called the Father "the only true God." (John 17:3) We believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God deriving authority from the father to follow the plan of the Father. We believe they are of one authority and purpose but not "of the same substance."

[/quote]

Sorry,but Mormonism is incorrect. Then Mormons adhere to Arianism which was viewed as heretical back in the 4th century. Jesus is also 100% human and the fact he calls God His Father does not reject His 100% divinity and shared substance with the Father. Jesus was doing merely the will of His Father,does not disprove His substance or divinity.

How can Jesus not be of the same stance? Does an infant not have the same substance of his father? Precisely why Jesus is begotten of the Father,not CREATED as JW's teach and Arians.


#14

[quote="mtolympus, post:5, topic:296474"]
Latter-day Saints do believe that Jesus Christ is a God. (No apology required.:))

[/quote]

Let's be clear here.


#15

[quote="Callvenus, post:12, topic:296474"]
Christ is not the creator of ALL things in Mormon doctrine. He is a created being. They believe that Elohim and Jehovah are two separate Gods even though the Hebrew clearly contradicts that notion. They believe Christ is a god but not THE GOD. Also, when referring to creation, Christ was not alone in creating, ( I mean organizing, the Mormon God can not create something out of nothing, ex nihilio, but rather can just organize pre-existing matter). Christ was joined by the great and noble ones which General Authorities of the LDS Church have speculated about. Many believe Joseph Smith had a hand in creation as well. I had one institute teacher tell me that because I liked animals so much, I probably had a hand in creating them lol. That is all speculation of course but in terms of doctrine, Christ was not alone in the creation of the Universe. In fact, the temple ceremony clearly states that Adam (who was Michael the Archangel before he came to earth) assisted Jehovah (Jesus) in carrying out God's (Elohim) plan to organize a world.

[/quote]

:ouch:


#16

[quote="mtolympus, post:5, topic:296474"]
Latter-day Saints do believe that Jesus Christ is God. (No apology required.:))

You are correct that it was Jesus Christ who appeared unto Moses. When Jesus told the Jews: "before Abraham was I AM" the Jews immediately picked up stones to cast at him. (John 8:56-59) Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament. He is the God of Jacob who was called "the Shepherd, the stone of Israel." (Gen. 49:24) Jesus Christ is the mediator between God (the Father) and man. (1 Tim 2:5) Jesus often speaks to man using the words from the Father. (John 14:24) In other words Jesus appears to man and speaks on behalf of the Father as he did in the Old Testament. There are a number of reports from the Old Testament of men who saw God, (Moses, Jacob and others). However, it was Jesus Christ whom they had seen. The testimony of John the Baptist may help us understand this concept:

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.

[/quote]

Is this true? What we commonly refer to as "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ is truly the Second Person of the Trinity which became flesh? That was not my understanding.

Are you three-in-one, one-in-three Trinitarians?

-Tim-


#17

[quote="ConstantineTG, post:4, topic:296474"]
I myself still can't figure out how any faith can claim to believe in the Bible, have the Gospel of St. John in there, and not believe Christ is God.

[/quote]

The Arians did a pretty good job of it. I honestly think that most people, if confronted with some of the arguments made by Arians like Eunomius, would not be able to refute them.


#18

[quote="Callvenus, post:12, topic:296474"]
Christ is not the creator of ALL things in Mormon doctrine. He is a created being. They believe that Elohim and Jehovah are two separate Gods.

[/quote]

So does the Bible which uses the plural pronouns:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness and: let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them." (Gen. 1:26-27)

This is confirmed by Paul who said that God created all things by Jesus Christ:

"And to make all men see what is the followship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. (Eph. 3:9)

[quote="Callvenus, post:12, topic:296474"]
They believe Christ is a god but not THE GOD.

[/quote]

Jesus Christ is the Son of God and clearly separate from the Father to whom he prayed: "And these words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven..." (John 17:1) Jesus called the Father to whom He prayed "the only true God": "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

The LDS believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God. (D&C 20:28) Jesus was given authority from the Father: (John 5:26-27) Through this authority from the Father and unity of purpose, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God.

Jesus Christ is the God of the Old testament. He is the God of Jacob who was called "the Shepherd, the stone of Israel." (Gen. 49:24) Jesus Christ is the mediator between God (the Father) and man. (1 Tim 2:5) Jesus often speaks to man using the words from the Father. (John 14:24) In other words Jesus appears to man and speaks on behalf of the Father as he did in the Old Testament. There are a number of reports from the Old Testament of men who saw God, (Moses, Jacob and others). However, it was Jesus Christ whom they had seen. The testimony of John the Baptist may help us understand this concept:

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.


#19

[quote="Nicea325, post:13, topic:296474"]
Sorry,but Mormonism is incorrect. Then Mormons adhere to Arianism which was viewed as heretical back in the 4th century. Jesus is also 100% human and the fact he calls God His Father does not reject His 100% divinity and shared substance with the Father. Jesus was doing merely the will of His Father,does not disprove His substance or divinity.

How can Jesus not be of the same stance? Does an infant not have the same substance of his father? Precisely why Jesus is begotten of the Father,not CREATED as JW's teach and Arians.

[/quote]

I think you are confusing some of our teachings with the JWs. Arianism was wrong. Jesus is divine. We do not believe that Jesus and the Father are of the same substance as it is understood from the Nicene creed. Jesus was the divine Son of God but we believe the Father and the Son are separate beings. They were clearly separate when Jesus prayed to His Father who is in heaven. (John 17:3) We do believe they had the same authority and unity of purpose which was derived from the Father and which makes them one God.


#20

No we are not Trinitarians as defined in the Nicene creed. The LDS believe the Father and Son have physical bodys and that man was literally made in the “image and likeness of God” (Gen 1:26) and that Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. (1 John 4:9)


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