Soul sleep/Going to Heaven after Death


#1

Hey, I have a good friend (my roommate) who a self classified Arian/Jehovah Witness. He kind of has a mixture of beliefs ranging from a lot of different heretical secs.

Right now he is on the topic of soul sleeping and saying we don’t go to heaven. I’ve showed him some things but he is pretty stubborn.

Any one have any kind of bible verses or early commentaries on what happens right after we die?

He uses various verses too to prove we don’t go to heaven right away.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

Things of that nature


#2

Upon His death, our Lord descended to the dead to preach the Gospel to them. Would He do that if they were asleep? See 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6.


#3

2 Corinthians 5: 1 For we know that if our earthly dwelling, a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in heaven. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be further clothed with our heavenly habitation 3 if indeed, when we have taken it off,* we shall not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent we groan and are weighed down, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a first installment.6 So we are always courageous, although we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord. 9Therefore, we aspire to please him, whether we are at home or away.

Peace


#4

Scripture states that when we are out of these bodies, we will “be with the LORD” (2Co 5).

You aren’t **with **somebody if you are asleep.

The soul cannot sleep in any case ; as sleep is a body function. The stretching, dreaming, etc can be done and enjoyed only by BODIES. The soul cannot sleep; and a dead body is not asleep!

ICXC NIKA


#5

Completely forgot the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). Neither Lazarus, the rich man, nor Abraham were asleep, but were awake and conversing. IF we take Jesus at His word and do not alter it to fit some weird theology.


#6

[quote="po18guy, post:2, topic:340389"]
Upon His death, our Lord descended to the dead to preach the Gospel to them. Would He do that if they were asleep? See 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6.

[/quote]

Was that purgatory or hell or some other place?


#7

It was the abode of the dead, rather than the hell of the damned - even though it is often called hell. In that spiritual place were those Old Testament souls who were being offered the Gospel for their salvation after physical death. No one exits the hell of the damned, and there is no reason for our Lord to have gone there.


#8

[quote="SpeakInSilence, post:1, topic:340389"]
Hey, I have a good friend (my roommate) who a self classified Arian/Jehovah Witness. He kind of has a mixture of beliefs ranging from a lot of different heretical secs.

Right now he is on the topic of soul sleeping and saying we don't go to heaven. I've showed him some things but he is pretty stubborn.

Any one have any kind of bible verses or early commentaries on what happens right after we die?

He uses various verses too to prove we don't go to heaven right away.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

Things of that nature

[/quote]

I used to have a 7th Day Adventist who worked for me--no more. Adventists and JW's believe much of the same off-beat things and are--in my opinion--about two of the craziest, somewhere out-in-left-field, cults in existence! The idea of "spirit sleep" is actually one of their saner beliefs. There is no logical manner of arguing religion with one in my opinion, because it is a lot like arguing reality with a schizophrenic or anything at all with a drunk! They aren't even coming from the same planet as you in terms of religious belief! Moreover, if you've found one who wants to talk religion with you--a Catholic--I'd be willing to make a side bet that it's not at all because he or she is open to any of your ideas regardless of any biblical quote you can come up with. I bet it's more because they secretly believe that they can lure YOU, away and convert a Catholic--which most of them hate and think of as the "whore of Babylon"!! I don't even attempt to talk to them--I decided long ago that my sanity is more important!!;)


#9

St Paul seems to think there will be judgment after we die, although some would rather sleep I'm sure.

Hebrews 9: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


#10

He misunderstands these verses, then… :wink:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Looking at 1 Cor 15:51 without looking at the following two verses is just… weird.

In v. 53, we see that in heaven, humans who had been corruptible and mortal will become incorruptible and immortal. In v. 52, we see that the dead (who were clearly mortal, and clearly corruptible) will be raised incorruptible. But, where does that leave the living, who are still mortal and still corruptible (but not yet dead)? Do they have to die first, so that they can be raised incorruptible (like those who had already died)? Paul is telling us that this isn’t the case: the dead will rise incorruptible, but they won’t be the only ones to put on immortality and incorruptibility; the living, too, will be changed “in the blink of an eye” and “at the last trumpet”. The dead proved their mortality long ago, and time has proven that they were corruptible; those who are alive at the end of time will not have to die and wait for their bodies to decay in order to attain to heaven.

So, no soul sleep when you look at it in context!

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

Here, Peter isn’t trying to make any sort of claims about the state of a soul between death and the eschaton, let alone the claim that David is in ‘soul sleep’. Rather, Peter is trying to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. How does he do that? Well, first of all, Peter is relying on a few things that people of that day all agreed on: David was the author of the Psalms; David was God’s anointed King; David had been promised an eternal kingship through one of his descendants; and the things spoken of in Psalms refer to either David or to his descendant the Messiah.

So, Paul points to Psalm 110, in which we read “the LORD said to my Lord, ‘sit at my right hand’…”. Now, the first LORD refers to God – there’s no question about that. But, the question remains: who is ‘my Lord’? Is it David, or the Messiah? Well, there was nothing in Jewish tradition that asserted that David had ascended into heaven, so Peter asserts that this verse must be a prophecy of David about the Messiah! Therefore, the Messiah must be in God’s presence, seated at His right hand!

Peter has asserted that Jesus was not dead: they saw him resurrected. Therefore, if Jesus has been raised from the dead by God and if He is the Messiah, then he (not David) is seated at the right hand of God!

See what I mean? Peter is building a proof about Jesus being alive and in heaven, not about David being in ‘soul sleep’…! Now, he is right about David “not going to heaven right away” – after all, nobody was able to go to heaven until Jesus died on the cross and rose again! But, even Matthew (Mt 27:53) tells us that the saints entered the holy city after Jesus’ resurrection! So… David couldn’t get to heaven without Jesus (check). But there’s nowhere in the tradition (which is what Peter is appealing to) that suggests that David was in ‘soul sleep’…


#11

I'm also reminded were Jesus says I'm the god of the living and not the dead. He then mentions Abraham and Isaac. Both both are dead yet he says, I'm the God of the living and mentions them if their asleep he should of said, I'm the God of Peter, John, and judas.


#12

One common misconception is that “sleep” as a term for death means unconsciousness. Sleep, however, is no more than a term for death which implies nothing about the consciousness of the soul. Remember the story of the raising of Lazarus?

“These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.”
(John 11:11-14)

Sleep is a fitting term because it underscores the impermanence of death. If anything is truly “asleep” (i.e. unconscious), it is only the body. In addition to the other good proof texts of the consciousness of the separated soul, here’s one from Revelation.

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”
(Revelation 6:9-10)

Why would the souls be crying out for vengeance if they were unconscious?


#13

[quote="SpeakInSilence, post:1, topic:340389"]
Hey, I have a good friend (my roommate) who a self classified Arian/Jehovah Witness. He kind of has a mixture of beliefs ranging from a lot of different heretical secs.

Right now he is on the topic of soul sleeping and saying we don't go to heaven. I've showed him some things but he is pretty stubborn.

Any one have any kind of bible verses or early commentaries on what happens right after we die?

He uses various verses too to prove we don't go to heaven right away.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

Things of that nature

[/quote]

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "This day you will be with me in paradise." Jesus was referring to the thief's death, but is paradise "sleep death"? If so, then the angels and saints are in sleep death too for they are in paradise.

When Jesus took Peter, James, and John up a mountain for his transfiguation, and he was speaking with Moses and Elias, how is this possible to speak to someone in sleep death?
Didn't they need to be conscience to talk with Jesus?


#14

Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”


#15

You might want to show them Revelation 5:5-8. In that passage, John has a vision of heaven, and in heaven he sees twenty four elders, human beings, and they are worshipping God and praising him. And not only that, but they all have golden bowls of incense, and they are taking this incense up to the throne of God, and the bible says this incense represents the prayers of the saints coming up from the earth.

So not only are they conscious and praising God, they are bringing him prayers of the people on earth, which indicates this is when people are still alive on the earth, not at the end of time.

Also in Phillipians 1:22-23, St. Paul says he is conflicted between wanting to die and be with The Lord, "For that is far better" but he also wants to remain on earth for the Phillipians sake. I don't know about you, but being unconscious doesn't sound "far better" than living here on earth, and I can't imagine someone being conflicted between the two. If however, when we die we are with The Lord, as Paul explicitly says here, then his desire makes perfect sense.


#16

Ive heard this theory before and while it was awhile ago, i do recall it being explained very well and it made sense that when people die, they are simply in a deep sleep until the second coming, and one thing from the bible makes me wonder about this, when it is said "the dead do not know anything, for they are dead" I think there is more to this statement, but cant think of it right now. This kind of implies the dead are in a kind of sleep state, waiting for God to return


#17

So the paths are heaven, hell, purgatory, realm of the dead, and sleep state?


#18

[quote="EIF5A, post:17, topic:340389"]
So the paths are heaven, hell, purgatory,

[/quote]

Catholic teaching. Those in purgatory are saved and on their way to heaven, but are being purged of sin or the attachment to sin. Those in hell are gone - nothing can help them.

[quote="EIF5A, post:17, topic:340389"]
realm of the dead,

[/quote]

Before Christ (Old Testament teaching).

[quote="EIF5A, post:17, topic:340389"]
and sleep state?

[/quote]

19th century Seventh Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness (and a few other tiny sects0 teaching.


#19

Philippians 1

I firmly trust and anticipate that I shall never be put to shame for my hopes; I have full confidence that now as always Christ will be exalted through me, whether I live or die. For, to me, “life” means Christ; hence dying is so much gain.

If, on the other hand, I am to go on living in the flesh, that means productive toil for me—and I do not know which to prefer. I am strongly attracted by both: I long to be freed from this life and to be with Christ, for that is the far better thing; yet it is more urgent that I remain alive for your sakes. This fills me with confidence that I will stay with you, and persevere with you all, for your joy and your progress in the faith. My being with you once again should make you even prouder of me in Christ.

Peace


#20

[quote="hazcompat, post:19, topic:340389"]
Philippians 1

I firmly trust and anticipate that I shall never be put to shame for my hopes; I have full confidence that now as always Christ will be exalted through me, whether I live or die. For, to me, “life” means Christ; hence dying is so much gain.

If, on the other hand, I am to go on living in the flesh, that means productive toil for me—and I do not know which to prefer. I am strongly attracted by both: I long to be freed from this life and to be with Christ, for that is the far better thing; yet it is more urgent that I remain alive for your sakes. This fills me with confidence that I will stay with you, and persevere with you all, for your joy and your progress in the faith. My being with you once again should make you even prouder of me in Christ.

Peace

[/quote]

Just sidebar, but don't you love this particular quote? Every time I read it, I picture Paul, setting there in prison-- writing this letter,worrying aloud about his church that he had worked so hard for and feels that still need his guidance---but at the same time, yearning to be gone from earth and with that great presence that had knocked him off his horse and blinded him which resulted in his own conversion! The poignancy of Paul's inner dilemna always impacts me. It's as if he were saying: " I love you all and want to see you again and be there for you---but I'd really just rather be done with all this and go home to Jesus!" Haven't we all felt kind of that way at one time or another? Anyway, I'm off track of the thread--but I saw the quote and just had to add this!:thumbsup:


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