I think the important thing to keep in mind is …does this bring me closer to Christ?
I do not have that gift, but a lady down the street who goes to my parish does. I heard her speak tongue. It totally moved me. At one point I thought I was going to say everything she said while she was saying it.
I do. I got it shortly after being baptized in the Spirit in 1974.
I assume you meant “wary” rather than “weary.” Let me tell you a story that heppened to me. When I first got involved in the Catholic Charismatic community I was still in college studying anthropology. I was taking a class in anthropological linguistics. One Sunday my wife and I went to a Charismatic Day of Renewal which included prayer, teaching sessions and a Mass at teh end. That day I was sitting behind a man who, when we were praying in tongues, started making a bunch of clicking noises. I thought, this is nuts. This isn’t a real language. The next day in my linguistics class, we studied a family of African languages called Xausa. Guess what. Quite a few of the consonants in these languages are clicking noises.
I also did a paper for an anthropology of religion class on the charismatic renewal. I was able to document 106 incidents of languages spoken as the gift of tongues, which were identified by someone who had a natural knowledge of the language. One case involved a man who spoke a medieval dialect of German when praying in tongues but otherwise could not speak at all.
Keep in mind, demons can speak in tongues as well. Might want to read up on what Fr. Amorth has to say about speaking in tongues. It can be a very good thing, or a very bad thing.
Satan is smart enough not to counterfeit a $3.00 bill. On the other hand he will try to counterfeit anything that is from God.
I’m not quite sure what it is to be honest, maybe because I don’t have it myself… I still haven’t formed a precise opinion on it, to be honest. I just have some charismatic friends…they’re good Christians…
I have read many a liturgical document and not once have I seen where there is an option for the faithful to spontaneously begin “speaking in tongues”. Can you provide a source from Rome that approves such things during the liturgy?
Consider the tower of Babel. And then that Her Heart would be pierced so that that thoughts of many would be known. Thus we understand Babel, tongues, and the Communion. Nothing more needs to be said.
As far as I know there is no document that is specific as you wish however there is also no document that I know of that specifically prohibits it either. Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have all spoken favorably about the charismatic movement. If that’s not enough for you, then you have a problem.
The Holy Father approving of a movement does not equal approval of liturgical abberations.
There’s no document that specifically states that a priest may not dress as a clown and play hopscotch on the altar but that doesn’t mean the priest is free to do so. :rolleyes:
So you’re saying that not just the current Holy Father but two others before him approved of movements which promoted liturgical aberations. Why would they do such a thing? If they thought these were liturgical aberations, why not say something like “they’ve got some good ideas but …”
No. What the popes approved of was devotion to the Holy Spirit and enthusiasm for the charismatic gifts. Unfortunately the Holy Father can not police every little thing the charismatics do and so when they feel like interjecting their own spirituality into the public worship of the Church little is done to correct it. There are a lot of unorthodox things that go on in the Church and the Pope can not or will not speak out against all of them. That isn’t a green light allowing these things to take place, but sadly they do. The Church is pretty precise as to what is and is not allowed in the Liturgy and so I go back to my original question which you never answered: how, according to the Church, do charismatics justify turning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into a charismatic praise and worship session?
I have a hard time believing that, if the charismatics were guilty of liturgical abuse, the popes would have said anything positive about them. You seem to think that the popes would not have some investigating done before making a positive statement about them. If you are aware of what happens in a charismatic Mass, do you really think the pope wouldn’t be?
I would imagine there are charismatics who are actually obedient to the Church and don’t allow or take part in abuses during the liturgy so I can’t say that ALL charismatic Masses are like that. But, I have been to several and they were all aweful. Again, you didn’t answer the question, you just made assumptions.
And not to derail the thread, but Rome is not always on its toes in investingating groups or movements in the Church. In January, the Holy Father lifted the excommunications of the bishops of the Society of St. Pius X without properly investigating one of the group’s bishops who have some very controversial views. This little oversight caused a lot of scandal and stress to the pope.
Another example of a movement that was approved but later admonished is Lifeteen. There were several liturgical abuses taking place at these liturgies and yet John Paul II gave his approval. It was only several years later that authorities started to crack down on Lifeteen and they were told to stop several of their practices. Their founder is now excommunicated for various other reasons.
There are all sorts of groups, movements, and individuals which practice or believe something contrary to Church doctrine or disipline and unfortunately the Pope can not deal with all of it. Given the Holy Father’s example of beautiful and traditional liturgy, I would think it would be obvious that he wants to move the Church’s worship in a more Catholic direction. The “reform of the reform” does not include protestant styles of charismatic worship.
First of all, you have not established that there are liturgical abuses in the charismatic Mass. So far you have given us nothing more than your opinion. Where, exactly, does it say that the congregation cannot pray or praise God. Have you ever been to a charismatic Mass? Where do you think these prayers are interjected?
While I would agree that the Vatican is not always up to speed on matters such as this, I find your assumption that you know more about what is going on than they do to be a bit presumptuous.
An important thing that God asks of us is to trust Him in all things–to relinquish our own wants and control over our lives and trust Him to lead us. Praying in tongues has a lot to do with this idea, I believe.
If you have ever seen charismatics or others in praise and worship lift their hands to God, it is a form of letting go. Like a child reaches up to his/her parents to lift them up, we raise our hands to Him to show our complete trust in HIm. Speaking in tongues I don’t think is always meant to be something that makes you feel ‘on fire’ or even to speak in another language that you don’t know (though at times, I have heard this gift is given to people). At least in my experience, speaking in tongues, which I know is very frightening because it doesn’t seem socially acceptable or make sense, is similar to raising one’s hands. By speaking without trying to articulate your words, you allow the Holy Spirit to express to God your deepest feelings. And at the same time, you learn to trust Him, since it may seem strange to speak ‘words’ that make no intellectual sense.
Through words we can often conceal our true feelings or meaning, even from ourselves and perhaps even when we are praying. I find it to be helpful when I am alone and distressed sometimes to allow my spirit to take over and trust that He will understand the words that I cannot express on my own.
My confirmation teacher talked about praying in toungues last week. She did it for us. She just started out by saying “God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, We thank you and we give you glory” over and over, and then she started singing these praises of God, sort of like psalms.
Hey guys from my own experience the sounds are made by relaxing the mouth and flicking the tongue up and down, however it does not seem to make any words until you add a sound i.e if quickly the 3 letters ‘arc’ come to mind i utter something like arc la tra bar. Now “arc” i can distinctly call coming to mind however “la tra bar” appear to have come out of no where so fast that im not conscious of the thought perhaps. This almost makes me think that all i need to do is relax my mouth flick my tongue and start with a sound like “arc” consciously and from there as of some mystery other sounds follow almost absent mindly.
Now i’m skeptical as to whether this is biblical or holy or just a fact concerned with our mind/body etc. I can remember quite clearly as a child around 6-10 years old both myself and youngest brother speaking in such a similar way however there was no religious or prayerful intent at the time and perhaps some of the words seemed to sound like they could be from another language but i have no way of knowing. Part of me wishes someone would reply arc tra la bar sounds similar to bla bla in said other foreign language.
I am a catholic and one of my two youth groups is charasmatic however we do not have charasmatic masses, we do have worships before orat the end of meetings though and when we occasionally pray over each other.
I’d really like the gift maybe i even have it but im too sceptical, not sure. I do however remember going to a ecummunical community once and i felt looked down on and slow because despite their prayers i wasnt speaking tongues. It was like i felt their frustration upon me and i remember hearing “just do it” so i believe i faked a little sound and they walked to someone else. They also told me to repent and that my lip ring was keeping me from God so i took it out and when i came to my senses put it back in.
Cant tim staples answer this ? c’mon i saw him in sydney a few months ago and heard him say the only real tongues is in another language with an interpreter[which are rare]. I didnt get to ? him on this though. To me both forms of tongues if from God should be fine to use but all gifts of holy spirit are not uncontrolable. so no tongues during liturgy lol