Speaking in Tongues


#1

Why do some Christians equate utterances that have no gramatical structure and can be understood by no one to the “speaking in tongues” by the Apostles at Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that Pentecost was the reversal of the curse of Babel and a concrete example of the intention that Christ’s Church be “universal” or “catholic”. The Apostles were given the gift of speaking foreign languages to speak the Word of God to those who did not speak their “mother tongue”. It seems to me that a more accurate equivalent of the gift of “speaking in tongues” when filled with the Holy Spirit would be the fluency of Pope John Paul II who was fluent in 8 languages and adept in 13. Pope Benedict XVI is fluent in at least 3 - German, Italian and English. The main objection I have to the “gibberish” that some call “speaking in tongues” is that the Word of God is not being conveyed and no one understands what is being said. Can someone who is familiar with the churches who expect “speaking in tongues” explain how these religions see this as comparable to Pentecost?


#2

#3

Praying in tongues has different forms of manifestation. One is for the upbuilding of the church. Another is for the worship of God.

**1 Corinthians
*Chapter 14

***2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.

9  Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said?

#4

So is it true what is said about people speaking in tongues that there has to be an interpreter there to explain what is being said to others?

Also, is it “right” for people to be telling others in casual conversation that they themselves have spoken in tongues?

I really don’t understand this much at all… can anyone explain further?

Thanks :slight_smile:

Jb


#5

[quote=Psalm 37:4-5]So is it true what is said about people speaking in tongues that there has to be an interpreter there to explain what is being said to others?

Also, is it “right” for people to be telling others in casual conversation that they themselves have spoken in tongues?

[/quote]

Wow… this question should really be made a sticky, it comes up so much.

The requirement for an interpreter comes from a misreading of 1 Corinthians 14:

26 9 So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.

They just read verse 27, and take it out of context. Reading the surrounding verses points out that this requirement only takes place when you assemble (during the liturgy), because it is silly to have a preacher up on the pulpit speaking in tongues if no one has any clue what he’s saying. It does not upbuild the community.

But rather then condemning private tongues, the next verse exhonerates it, urging the user to rather continue praying it quietly to God so as not to disrupt the assembly.

As to whether bringing it up in conversation is important, I’d say it depends. Am I being prideful? “Look what I can do.” Of course its inappropriate.

If someone is legitametly trying to give glory to God and give witness to His presence in our lives, then sure, as long as it is done properly. Depends on your audience and situation.

Josh


#6

[quote=Eden]Why do some Christians equate utterances that have no gramatical structure and can be understood by no one to the “speaking in tongues” by the Apostles at Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that Pentecost was the reversal of the curse of Babel and a concrete example of the intention that Christ’s Church be “universal” or “catholic”. The Apostles were given the gift of speaking foreign languages to speak the Word of God to those who did not speak their “mother tongue”. It seems to me that a more accurate equivalent of the gift of “speaking in tongues” when filled with the Holy Spirit would be the fluency of Pope John Paul II who was fluent in 8 languages and adept in 13. Pope Benedict XVI is fluent in at least 3 - German, Italian and English. The main objection I have to the “gibberish” that some call “speaking in tongues” is that the Word of God is not being conveyed and no one understands what is being said. Can someone who is familiar with the churches who expect “speaking in tongues” explain how these religions see this as comparable to Pentecost?
[/quote]

The gift of Tongues is like the process in the United Nations where a speaker speaks in his mother language, for example, Japanese. His Japanese sentences are heard by a team of human translators. One translator translates his Japanese sentences into English. Another human translator translates his Japanese sentences into Arabic. Another human translator translates his Japanese sentences into Chinese. Another might translate his Japanese sentences into Russian. Another into French. Another into Spanish. Another might not even translate his Japanese into say Portuguese but would do so indirectly by translating the Spanish translation into Portuguese.

Then these human translators speak into their own microphones the translations of the Japanese sentences. In turn, the people in the audience in the United Nations can hear the Japanese speaker either directly in Japanese or indirectly by tuning or connecting their headphones or earphones to the translators whose translated language they understand.

This process of translating into the various languages as done in the United Nations is the scientificm human way of translating, AND INVOLVES TIME DELAYS, ERRORS IN TRANSLATIONS, USES HUMAN TRANSLATORS AND MICROPHONES, EARPHONES ETC.

In the Gift of Tongues, NO SUCH HUMAN TRANSLATORS EXIST. THE SPEAKER MIGHT BE SPEAKING IN JAPANESE. BUT ARABS WILL HEAR HIM NOT IN JAPANESE BUT IN ARABIC. AMERICANS WILL HEAR HIM IN AMERICAN ENGLISH. THE BRITISH WILL HEAR HIM IN BRITISH ENGLISH. THE CHINESE WILL HEAR HIM IN CHINESE. THE ITALIANS IN ITALIAN. THE SPANIARDS IN SPANISH. THE PORTUGUESE IN PORTUGUESE. THE KOREANS IN KOREAN. AN ETHIOPIAN IN ETHIOPIAN. AND ALL THESE WILL BE DONE WITHOUT ANY GADGETS, WITHOUT HUMAN TRANSLATORS, WITHOUT ERRORS, WITHOUT TIME DELAYS. HOW CAN THIS BE??? TO GOD, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

I understand, PADRE PIO HAD THIS GIFT. SO DID ST. VINCENT FERRER, THE DOMINICAN PRIEST WHO WAS THE DEFENDER OF THE WRONG POPE. I think that the CHILDREN OF FATIMA ALSO HAD A SPECIAL CASE OF THIS GIFT OF TONGUES (INNER LOCUTION?) WHERE EVEN WITHOUT WORDS, MESSAGES WERE COMMUNICATED BY THE BLESSED VIRGIN MOTHER IN THE FATIMA APPARITIONS SUCH AS THE MESSAGE THAT JACINTA AND FRANCISCO WOULD BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN SOON WHILE LUCIA WOULD BE LEFT ON EARTH FOR MANY YEARS MORE. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! ! ! Jacinta and Francisco died in the Spanish Flu Epidemic while still children. Lucia only died recently at age 95, I think. For those who don’t know, Jacinta Marto’s body never decomposed!!! Never decayed!!! Even though it was never embalmed!!! For those blessed with the gift of tongues, they will understand from this that this is God communicating with you, that this is a miracle from God!!! For those who do not have the gift of tongues, EVEN IF JACINTA’S BODY NEVER DECOMPOSED, THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE!!!


#7

It is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but is it authentic for all? sometimes not. Fr. Groschele has told the story of a pentecostal girl (13yrs. I believe) who spoke japanese, not her native language, for three days…Catholics can receive this same gift…it is not reserved for only protestants, and I witnessed this at a charismatic mass once.

Lillith


#8

I can see that I may have misunderstood the scriptural basis for speaking in tongues. I thought that Pentecost was the miracle that those who speak in tongues turn to for evidence in the Bible. That was why I was confused. It seems very clear that the gift breathed on the apostles from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the ability to speak “new” languages i.e. foreign languages that were before that moment unknown to them. They spoke foreign “tongues” and in that way began their ministry to bring the Word of God to the world at the commencing of the “universal” Church. I’ve never witnessed someone “speaking in tongues” in which “the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.” Is this saying that these people are making incomprehensible noises that are the deepest needs and prayers unknown to the person being offered to God? Forgive me if I seem ignorant, but I’m not very familiar with this concept.


#9

[quote=Eden -----Post #8]… It seems very clear that the gift breathed on the apostles from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the ability to speak “new” languages i.e. foreign languages that were before that moment unknown to them. They spoke foreign “tongues” and in that way began their ministry to bring the Word of God to the world at the commencing of the “universal” Church.+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + I’ve never witnessed someone “speaking in tongues” in which “the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.” Is this saying that these people are making incomprehensible noises that are the deepest needs and prayers unknown to the person being offered to God? Forgive me if I seem ignorant, but I’m not very familiar with this concept.
[/quote]

In the experience of the apostles, the apostles DID NOT SPEAK IN FOREIGN LANGUAGES. Their speeches were in their own language, which I think was Galilean.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, however, BY THE TIME THE GALILEAN SPEECHES ARRIVED AT THE EARS OF THE FOREIGN LISTENERS, THE SOUNDWAVES HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO ARABIC IF YOU WERE ARAB, ITALIAN IF YOU WERE ITALIAN, LATIN IF YOU WERE ROMAN, SPANISH IF YOU WERE SPANIARD, PORTUGUESE IF YOU WERE PORTUGUESE, WATUSI IF YOU WERE WATUSI. AND SOUND OF THE SPEAKER WAS THE VOICE OF THE APOSTLE.

Accounts of confessions made by people to Padre Pio —which you can google perhaps in the Internet “padre pio confession” — english" — show that such was the experience of Padre Pio and some of the people who went to confession to him. A man said that he made a confession to Padre Pio. In what language? English. That’s strange. Why? Because Padre Pio does not know any English!!! BUT HE WAS SPEAKING TO ME IN PERFECT ENGLISH!!!

On your second question on groans, I think the experience is like this. Words have their limitations. Sometimes, you understand and see what is in front of you. But though you can see it in pictures, you lack the words and verbal skill to explain it. So all you can utter are groans. For example, I went to a computer store. I asked the technician some technical questions regarding my computer. He could’t answer with words and in frustration just uttered a groan. He said to me, it is hard to explain because usually he just clicks and clicks and clicks. So he said let me show you how I do it with the mouse. So he clicked and and clicked and clicked so fast and I looked so stupid unable to make sense out of the things appearing on the screen which to him were just automatic and second nature. By then, I think I also uttered a groan.


#10

[quote=Eden]I’ve never witnessed someone “speaking in tongues” in which “the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.” Is this saying that these people are making incomprehensible noises that are the deepest needs and prayers unknown to the person being offered to God? Forgive me if I seem ignorant, but I’m not very familiar with this concept.
[/quote]

I’d say you’ve nailed it quite on. The story above about groaning at the computer guy actually is quite accurate too. Words can not always express the fullness of what needs to be said. The spirit provides sounds to us to help us pray these needs more completely, even if not logically.

Josh


#11

If my memory is correct, in the Gospels, we are told that the angels of these little ones appear in front of the Father. Let me share with you what my late departed uncle said to me about little children. His little daughter spoke one language. And here were her kid friends. She had a muslim friend who spoke one language, another friend a Chinese who spoke another language, another friend another language, and another friend, still another language. Here were the kids, he said, each speaking in his/her own language. The Chinese would speak in Chinese, the Muslim in Muslim, the French in French, the Spaniard in Spanish, the American in English, and somehow it appeared to him that they all understood each other. He was just laughing as he told me his story.

Today I look at birds in a tree. I would see them chirping, singing. As I’d try to play with the birds by mimicking their chirping, singing, one day I noticed that they really didn’t care whether I copied their chirping or singing. All THAT MATTERED TO THEM IS THAT I SANG OR CHIRPED. NO MATTER WHAT I CHIRPED, EVEN IF IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM THEIRS, LIKE THE CHIRP OF A BIRD FROM ABROAD, THAT IS FOREIGN AND ABSENT IN THIS COUNTRY, STILL THE BIRDS WOULD ANSWER BACK AND CHIRP IN THEIR OWN WAY WITHOUT MIMICKING MY CHIRP. TRY IT ONE OF THESE DAYS WITH THE BIRDS IN YOUR BACKYARD. Who know what lessons or hints the Holy Spirit might be giving us with these birds and children. At any rate, it will be FUN!!!


#12

Excuse me for my cynicism, but I see this as a bunch of hocum and the height of so much boulder-dash.:whacky:

IF this is all gibberish and no one understands anyone else then I think this is a bunch of malarky.

IF it were truely the gift of tongues then EVERYONE should be able to interpret what anyone else is saying.

Having a so called interpreter is totally bogus. You should be able to get folks from other nationalities into that room and every one should be able to interpret what is said.

Sorry just my opinion.
wc


#13

[quote=Lillith]It is a gift from the Holy Spirit, but is it authentic for all? sometimes not. Fr. Groschele has told the story of a pentecostal girl (13yrs. I believe) who spoke japanese, not her native language, for three days…Catholics can receive this same gift…it is not reserved for only protestants, and I witnessed this at a charismatic mass once.

Lillith
[/quote]

Remember that the evil one will & can immitate any & all gifts of the Holy Spirit, hence voodoo & wiccan healings & excorsisms. If this is what you mean by “authentic for all? sometimes not.” then you are correct, but if you believe that the Holy Spirit would give a gift to someone that is not meant for them then that is incorrect.

The gift of Discerment is most essential to know what comes from God & what does not.

Your username worries me. :confused:


#14

[quote=wcknight]Excuse me for my cynicism, but I see this as a bunch of hocum and the height of so much boulder-dash.:whacky: IF this is all gibberish and no one understands anyone else then I think this is a bunch of malarky.
IF it were truely the gift of tongues then EVERYONE should be able to interpret what anyone else is saying.
Having a so called interpreter is totally bogus. You should be able to get folks from other nationalities into that room and every one should be able to interpret what is said.
Sorry just my opinion.
wc

[/quote]

& your opinion is so much more reliable than the word of God. :rolleyes:

What you’re really saying is that the Holy Spirit “a bunch of hocum and the height of so much boulder-dash” & “is a bunch of malarky”.

I must refer you to **Matthew 12:31-32: **" Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Live your life according to the Word of God, not your personal opinion.


#15

[quote=The Eurasian]…In the experience of the apostles, the apostles DID NOT SPEAK IN FOREIGN LANGUAGES. Their speeches were in their own language, which I think was Galilean.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, however, BY THE TIME THE GALILEAN SPEECHES ARRIVED AT THE EARS OF THE FOREIGN LISTENERS, THE SOUNDWAVES HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO ARABIC IF YOU WERE ARAB, ITALIAN IF YOU WERE ITALIAN, LATIN IF YOU WERE ROMAN, SPANISH IF YOU WERE SPANIARD, PORTUGUESE IF YOU WERE PORTUGUESE, WATUSI IF YOU WERE WATUSI…
[/quote]

That is not what the Scriptures say:

[quote=Acts 2:1-4]When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[/quote]


#16

[quote=Dj Roy Albert]& your opinion is so much more reliable than the word of God. :rolleyes:

What you’re really saying is that the Holy Spirit “a bunch of hocum and the height of so much boulder-dash” & “is a bunch of malarky”.

I must refer you to **Matthew 12:31-32: **" Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Live your life according to the Word of God, not your personal opinion.

[/quote]

Sorry, the Holy Spirit does NOT need an interpreter. When the Apostles spoke in tongues, they did NOT have any interpreter and it did not sound like gibberish to anyone else.

IF I thought for a second this was the word of God, I would not take it so lightly.

Nothing in scriptures says the gift of tongue would require an interpreter. Either it is a legitimate foreign language or it is not, gibberish qualifies as neither.

Claiming something is the Word of God does not make it so. And claiming something is from the Holy Spirit does not make it so either. The Holy Spirit does not need an interpreter, never did and never will.

wc


#17

[quote=Joseph Bilodeau -------SEE POSTS #9,#15 ] That is not what the Scriptures say:
[/quote]

Joseph Bilodeu

Oh yes!!! My description of the process in Eurasian Post #9 is the same process in ACTS 2:5-13.

5 Now, there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. 6 At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia. Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Lybya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, 11 both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans, Arabs, YET WE HEAR THEM SPEAKING IN OUR OWN TONGUES of the mighty acts of God.”

It is interesting that for some reason that you yourself perhaps don’t understand, your quotation to refute me STOPPED AT ACTS 2:4. Yet my answer to refute you are the very verses that follow verse 4.

I myselft could not find this thread and thought it was deleted, when the subforums were made for Orthodox, Islam, LDS.

I found this thread and googled — tongues bible----- to answer you, and when I was about to answer you, no where could I find this thread. After many hours, I found that this was in the heading, the non-catholic forums. I typed answers in response to your post, but in several attempts, my responses just disppeared from the screen as I was typing them.

But looking at the verses that follow all the way to Acts 2-22, I think it is because in the verses that follow from verse 4 where you stopped -------all the way to verse 22 ARE SIGNS AND WONDERS AND PROPHECIES AND DREAMS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL DO IN THE LAST DAYS. AND THESE CAN BE VERY USEFUL AS CATHOLICS DIALOGUE IN THESE EXPERIMENTAL SUB-FORUMS WITH ORTHODOX, MUSLIMS, LDS, AND OTHERS


#18

I believe the argumentation here focuses too much on the gift described in the opening of acts, and totally ignores the references to the other gift that Paul talks about in Romans and 1 Corinthians 14.

That aside, we’ve laid the scriptual references out here. We’ve discussed different interpretations of them. Arguing isn’t going to carry this any further.

Christ said, “If you do not believe because of my teachings, believe because of the works I do.” So those of us with prayer languages, let us give testimony not through arguing, but through our love and devotion to God, and our reverence for His church.

Those who disagree so strongly with tongues, rather than becoming annoyed with us, pray for us that we may cast aside anything that is of us and be fully open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I know I"ll appreciate the prayers.

Those in between, remain open, pray, and see what the Holy Spirit reveals to you.

Josh


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