Speaking of Legionaires... some questions about them


#1

Speaking of the Legionaires,

I spoke just ten minutes ago with a good priest friend of mine, and I asked him about the Legionaires. This priest is THE most orthodox and holy priest I know, and is widely respected by the orthodox Catholic community of the area.

I was shocked to hear him speak of some issues he has with the Legionaires, he says from personal experience himself, as well as from conversations he has had with friends who were in the LoC as seminarians or priests (some of whom still are in the LoC and others who left the order).

Among the things he relates:

  • “Poor human formation” – such as seminarians not being allowed to keep miraculous medals, scapulars, or any type of private devotion; using their own type of communal prayer instead of the Liturgy of the Hours (until they are ordained, and then given a copy of the LOTH, with no instruction on its use – my friend said he had to teach one of his LoC friends how to use it); and crazy conformity practices, including not tucking their shirt in with their hands (using a stick instead…weird) and sleeping with their hands above the covers. Now, he has nothing but praise in terms of their theological formation and catechical abilities – he is speaking here only on the human formation aspects. He sees the LoC as being far too strict and very unreasonable.

  • Mandating seminarians to use their superior as their spiritual director/confessor (this is forbidden by canon law!)

  • The constitutions of the LoC are secret, and are not made public to non-LoC people. He says that a friend of his in the LoC read him some of the constitution over the phone, which is where he found out about the madating of superiors as confessors.

  • The LoC opening schools and other institutions using the “back door” into a diocese (using Regnum Christi lay members in particular) and then going to the bishop for the “rubber stamp of approval” after the fact. And, when asked to do things by the bishop, they say “yes, of course” very politely, and then just continue as before and make no changes as they said.

  • Arranging RC retreats and then time after time having the LoC priest(s) fail to show up (with the coordinators calling frantically around to find priests to hear confessions) (my priest friend had direct experience of this multiple times)

  • Using very direct vocation “recruitment” tactics, and being so selective in the process that it seems that discernment isn’t really a part of their discernment process.

  • My priest friend says that we need to take another look at all their “vocations” – according to him, the numbers of their priests never really go up or down, even though they ordain a “lot” of priests, because of the high rate of turnover. This is one thing that saddens him the most, he says, because he says many of the priests who leave the order leave the Church altogether.

  • He tells me that no LoC chapel/parish will have holy water fonts (!?) but he does not know why… this makes no sense to me, what’s going on with this?

Please keep in mind that my friend has no problem with the theological teaching of the LoC, or of the good fruits that have come from the organization (Familia, RC etc) – he trusts their teaching and their orthodoxy, and their committment to the Church and the Holy Father. Where he has serious reservations is in their formation of seminarians and in their organizational structure, which seems to be allowing these kinds of issues to continue rather than correct them.

Does anyone have any concrete information to add to this, or explain any of this, or any websites out there that detail this?

I totally trust my priest friend, if he says that he has directly experienced something, I trust that he has. Also – I asked him about all of this, completely unaware of his history with the LoC, I simply trusted him as a priest more than any other priest I know of. He has never, to my knowledge, gone around “slamming” the LoC or anything publically – I had no idea he had any feelings at all about the organization one way or the other until now.

Very curious indeed…

+veritas+


#2

Never heard this one but I will verify for you that all of the consecrated women have either a miraculous medal of Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, or another image of Mary.

Rather odd the Legionaire priest that walked by me to do Mass yesterday was tucking in his shirt as he walked by and I never saw a wire.

[quote=+veritas+] * The LoC opening schools and other institutions using the “back door” into a diocese (using Regnum Christi lay members in particular) and then going to the bishop for the “rubber stamp of approval” after the fact. )
[/quote]

Our school that is a Legionarie school was proposed by the Legion Priest to the parish priest who wanted a catholic school, the parish priest and the Legion priest went to the diocese this is fact.

[quote=+veritas+]And, when asked to do things by the bishop, they say “yes, of course” very politely, and then just continue as before and make no changes as they said.)
[/quote]

This one is interesting because when the our old cardinal Schoka asked the parishes to stop doing first confession in 4th grade and do it at the proper time 2nd grade, many of the parishes published in their bulletins we are perfectly happy with things as they are and intend to leave them this way. Yet when the bishops ask for the Legion to do something that is not necessarily correct and the Legion does not conform they are chastised instead? I have seen this more than once. But our priests here do get along well with the Bishops and have not had that problem. The Bishops usually come twice a year and the Cardinal has come to say Mass at the school.

[quote=+veritas+]* Arranging RC retreats and then time after time having the LoC priest(s) fail to show up (with the coordinators calling frantically around to find priests to hear confessions) (my priest friend had direct experience of this multiple times).)
[/quote]

This I have witnessed but in looking into the situation, it was usually caused by a death that the priest was helping with or some other severe matter.

[quote=+veritas+]* Using very direct vocation “recruitment” tactics, and being so selective in the process that it seems that discernment isn’t really a part of their discernment process.
[/quote]

This I have seen in many orders and within the military service as well. My son’s were recruited and as badly as we need military it takes monthes to go through a process that can sometimes be denied.

As for the rest of your statements, the holy water thing I always wondered about since I do have holy water in my home always in several different fonts and forever bringing in bottles of water for the Legion priest to bless. What I can say there whole focus is Christ then Mary. Teaching the imitation of Christ and then Mary. Sacramentals are great in fact I get them their holy oils every year and yes they use them. But the focus is the tabernacle in their chapels.
As far as books and medals statues etc. in their bookstores there are all different books on Mary the saints etc. They sell medals of all kinds and videos religous of all kind.
In reading about Fr. Maciel I have found simplicity is the key and Christ is the foundation of where he began the Legionaries of Christ. Christ and Mary are the primary focus.


#3

This is nothing more than gossip and hearsay.

I do not think this is the place air such accusations nor to discuss them.


#4

I have some experience with the LoC and will address what I know first hand and has not been addressed elsewhere.

[quote=+veritas+] Speaking of the Legionaires,

  • “Poor human formation” – using their own type of communal prayer instead of the Liturgy of the Hours (until they are ordained, and then given a copy of the LOTH, with no instruction on its use – my friend said he had to teach one of his LoC friends how to use it); +veritas+
    [/quote]

My LoC Friends always have their LOH and pray it regularly, I’m not sure of the instruction aspect, but it is not rocket science. I would hope that a priest with 14 years of formation could figure it out.

The founder preaches attention to detail in the little things so that you are trusted with the big things. Their formation in this regard reminds me of the training I received in the armed forces. They even use a knife and fork to eat an apple. I do not find this strange, just good discipline and manners.

+veritas+

I attend Loc retreats and I can assure you that the Our Lady of Bethesda Retreat Center’s chapel has Holy Water fonts. That statement was really out of left field considering the LoC’s focus on fulfilling ones Baptismal Vows.

The LoC priests are AMAZING catechists. Their holiness and orthodoxy is plain to see. I suggest that you attend one of their events and find out for yourself. My parish priest also had some of the same reservations until we had a discussion with some first hand experience.

Best Regards!


#5

What is all this nonsense? forums.catholic.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=398744#

By the way, I’ve been in 2 chapels of Regnum Christi, and there WERE holy water fonts in both of them.

What the heck is that priest talking about!?

Or maybe the writer is just fabricating this. forums.catholic.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=398744#


#6

What is all this nonsense?

By the way, I’ve been in 2 chapels of Regnum Christi, and there WERE holy water fonts in both of them.

What the heck is that priest talking about!?

Or maybe the writer is just fabricating this.


#7

This site will answer your questions about the Legionaires.

legionaryfacts.org

As a maybe possible future Legionaire, I dismiss your claims as ludicrius.


#8

I too agree with your priest friend, and MY best friend is a legion priest we grew up together. I have also heard (my friend though has never talked about the INNER workings) that the superiors walk by the bedroom doors and look in at night, all the doors have a little window, to make sure the hands ARE on top of the covers, and that no one is doing anything he should not be doing (solitary sins etc.). They ARE ARMED FORCES here?? The legion is NOT by all means the Current ONLY NEW order that has these controlling methods, there are a few others too, one founded in Spain, the other in Argentina in 1985). These latter two are seeking PONTIFICAL approval and for there extremes i really beleive they won’t get it anytime soon. I heard one of them, when the seminarians shower, they MUST only have contact with their skin, by using a long brush, the hands must NEVER touch the body. I am very serious here, no exageration. They also make you sleep on the mat on the floor, and you cannot speak all day in the one founded in Spain, until you take final vows and only in an emergency. I am as orthodox and "conservatice in catholic teaching as they come, but NEVER!!! Would I cease to exist as a person, because a superior or order wants to control EVERY detail, even the amount of Coffe one can drink as happened in one Novitiate where the Novice Master got irrititated more than once with his novices because they wanted to make coffee in the late afternoon. He aslo yelled many times at one novice for putting a little statue of Mary etc in the living room and chapel. The novice ended up leaving on his own because he was yelled at day in and day out for NO reason at all. Obviously this novice master had anger management problems, and was a control freak. The novice, was. ME.


#9

[quote=+veritas+]Speaking of the Legionaires,

I spoke just ten minutes ago with a good priest friend of mine, and I asked him about the Legionaires. This priest is THE most orthodox and holy priest I know, and is widely respected by the orthodox Catholic community of the area.

I was shocked to hear him speak of some issues he has with the Legionaires, he says from personal experience himself, as well as from conversations he has had with friends who were in the LoC as seminarians or priests (some of whom still are in the LoC and others who left the order).

Among the things he relates:

  • “Poor human formation” – such as seminarians not being allowed to keep miraculous medals, scapulars, or any type of private devotion; using their own type of communal prayer instead of the Liturgy of the Hours (until they are ordained, and then given a copy of the LOTH, with no instruction on its use – my friend said he had to teach one of his LoC friends how to use it); and crazy conformity practices, including not tucking their shirt in with their hands (using a stick instead…weird) and sleeping with their hands above the covers. Now, he has nothing but praise in terms of their theological formation and catechical abilities – he is speaking here only on the human formation aspects. He sees the LoC as being far too strict and very unreasonable.

  • Mandating seminarians to use their superior as their spiritual director/confessor (this is forbidden by canon law!)

  • The constitutions of the LoC are secret, and are not made public to non-LoC people. He says that a friend of his in the LoC read him some of the constitution over the phone, which is where he found out about the madating of superiors as confessors.

  • The LoC opening schools and other institutions using the “back door” into a diocese (using Regnum Christi lay members in particular) and then going to the bishop for the “rubber stamp of approval” after the fact. And, when asked to do things by the bishop, they say “yes, of course” very politely, and then just continue as before and make no changes as they said.

  • Arranging RC retreats and then time after time having the LoC priest(s) fail to show up (with the coordinators calling frantically around to find priests to hear confessions) (my priest friend had direct experience of this multiple times)

  • Using very direct vocation “recruitment” tactics, and being so selective in the process that it seems that discernment isn’t really a part of their discernment process.

  • My priest friend says that we need to take another look at all their “vocations” – according to him, the numbers of their priests never really go up or down, even though they ordain a “lot” of priests, because of the high rate of turnover. This is one thing that saddens him the most, he says, because he says many of the priests who leave the order leave the Church altogether.

  • He tells me that no LoC chapel/parish will have holy water fonts (!?) but he does not know why… this makes no sense to me, what’s going on with this?

Please keep in mind that my friend has no problem with the theological teaching of the LoC, or of the good fruits that have come from the organization (Familia, RC etc) – he trusts their teaching and their orthodoxy, and their committment to the Church and the Holy Father. Where he has serious reservations is in their formation of seminarians and in their organizational structure, which seems to be allowing these kinds of issues to continue rather than correct them.

Does anyone have any concrete information to add to this, or explain any of this, or any websites out there that detail this?

I totally trust my priest friend, if he says that he has directly experienced something, I trust that he has. Also – I asked him about all of this, completely unaware of his history with the LoC, I simply trusted him as a priest more than any other priest I know of. He has never, to my knowledge, gone around “slamming” the LoC or anything publically – I had no idea he had any feelings at all about the organization one way or the other until now.

Very curious indeed…

+veritas+
[/quote]

This sure is VERY POOR human formation.


#10

[quote=misericordie]I too agree with your priest friend, and MY best friend is a legion priest we grew up together. I have also heard…
[/quote]

Right there, the definition of hearsay.

This is nothing more than nasty gossip and hearsay attacking a faithful religious order of the Church.

Most likely becuase it is an order that follows all the Church teachings and celebrates the Mass of the Church and is growing which goes against those who think Vatican II and the Mass are destroying the Church.


#11

[quote=+veritas+]Speaking of the Legionaires,

  • “Poor human formation” – such as seminarians not being allowed to keep miraculous medals, scapulars, or any type of private devotion; using their own type of communal prayer instead of the Liturgy of the Hours … and crazy conformity practices, including not tucking their shirt in with their hands (using a stick instead…weird) and sleeping with their hands above the covers. …He sees the LoC as being far too strict and very unreasonable.
    [/quote]

My son is in one of their minor seminaries. He owns some private devotionals and has never been told to get rid of them. My son tucks his shirt in with his hands and I’ve seen Legionaries tuck their shirts in–that’s a ridiculous charge. I don’t know about sleeping with hands above the covers, but this sounds suspiciously like another ridiculous charge. As far as being strict and unreasonable, that’s a subjective opinion based on what appears to be misinformation.

[quote=+veritas+] * Mandating seminarians to use their superior as their spiritual director/confessor (this is forbidden by canon law!)
[/quote]

At least the minor seminarians usually go to confession to a priest who is not his spiritual guide. My son’s superior is a brother, so no confession there.

[quote=+veritas+] * The constitutions of the LoC are secret, and are not made public to non-LoC people. He says that a friend of his in the LoC read him some of the constitution over the phone, which is where he found out about the madating of superiors as confessors.
[/quote]

I don’t know if they are secret. I do know that the constitutions are approved by the Holy See, so perhaps take this up with the Vatican.

[quote=+veritas+] * The LoC opening schools and other institutions using the “back door” into a diocese (using Regnum Christi lay members in particular) and then going to the bishop for the “rubber stamp of approval” after the fact.
[/quote]

The LoC school that was opened in my diocese was done with the permission of the bishop.

[quote=+veritas+] * Arranging RC retreats and then time after time having the LoC priest(s) fail to show up (with the coordinators calling frantically around to find priests to hear confessions) (my priest friend had direct experience of this multiple times)
[/quote]

I experienced this once due to a schedule miscommunication. I was also at a regularly scheduled daily Mass at my parish once when the priest didn’t show up because he had overslept. Should I use this to impugn the entire diocesan priesthood?

[quote=+veritas+] * Using very direct vocation “recruitment” tactics, and being so selective in the process that it seems that discernment isn’t really a part of their discernment process.
[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

[quote=+veritas+] * My priest friend says that we need to take another look at all their “vocations” – according to him, the numbers of their priests never really go up or down, even though they ordain a “lot” of priests, because of the high rate of turnover. This is one thing that saddens him the most, he says, because he says many of the priests who leave the order leave the Church altogether.
[/quote]

I believe that the total number of Legionary priests has increased by 20% in the last 3 years. It’s too bad that your priest friend is sad–does he have any real numbers behind that statement?

[quote=+veritas+] * He tells me that no LoC chapel/parish will have holy water fonts (!?) but he does not know why… this makes no sense to me, what’s going on with this?
[/quote]

The chapels at the schools I’ve been to have holy water fonts. I think (although I’m not 100% sure) that there are no LoC parishes in the U.S. Once again, your priest friend is confused over something that he’s misinformed about.

[quote=+veritas+] Please keep in mind that my friend has no problem with the theological teaching of the LoC, or of the good fruits that have come from the organization (Familia, RC etc) – he trusts their teaching and their orthodoxy, and their committment to the Church and the Holy Father. Where he has serious reservations is in their formation of seminarians and in their organizational structure, which seems to be allowing these kinds of issues to continue rather than correct them.

[/quote]

If he can trust their teaching and orthodoxy, why doesn’t he trust that it arises out of an organizational structure that fosters orthodoxy? It seems that most of these issues he raises are either not true or misunderstood.

[quote=+veritas+] Does anyone have any concrete information to add to this, or explain any of this, or any websites out there that detail this?

[/quote]

You can look at www.legionaryfacts.org. Also read Christ is my Life.


#12

[quote=ByzCath]Right there, the definition of hearsay.

This is nothing more than nasty gossip and hearsay attacking a faithful religious order of the Church.

Most likely becuase it is an order that follows all the Church teachings and celebrates the Mass of the Church and is growing which goes against those who think Vatican II and the Mass are destroying the Church.
[/quote]

It is because there are catholics who even deny there has EVER been a problem of secrecy in the church, that the clerical sexual abuse OVERALL has been IN the church. We must see what REALLY happenns in many orders and seminaries. Here I am talking now in GENERAL.


#13

[quote=StJeanneDArc]My son is in one of their minor seminaries. He owns some private devotionals and has never been told to get rid of them. My son tucks his shirt in with his hands and I’ve seen Legionaries tuck their shirts in–that’s a ridiculous charge. I don’t know about sleeping with hands above the covers, but this sounds suspiciously like another ridiculous charge. As far as being strict and unreasonable, that’s a subjective opinion based on what appears to be misinformation.

At least the minor seminarians usually go to confession to a priest who is not his spiritual guide. My son’s superior is a brother, so no confession there.

I don’t know if they are secret. I do know that the constitutions are approved by the Holy See, so perhaps take this up with the Vatican.

The LoC school that was opened in my diocese was done with the permission of the bishop.

I experienced this once due to a schedule miscommunication. I was also at a regularly scheduled daily Mass at my parish once when the priest didn’t show up because he had overslept. Should I use this to impugn the entire diocesan priesthood?

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

I believe that the total number of Legionary priests has increased by 20% in the last 3 years. It’s too bad that your priest friend is sad–does he have any real numbers behind that statement?

The chapels at the schools I’ve been to have holy water fonts. I think (although I’m not 100% sure) that there are no LoC parishes in the U.S. Once again, your priest friend is confused over something that he’s misinformed about.

If he can trust their teaching and orthodoxy, why doesn’t he trust that it arises out of an organizational structure that fosters orthodoxy? It seems that most of these issues he raises are either not true or misunderstood.

You can look at www.legionaryfacts.org. Also read Christ is my Life.
[/quote]

Maybe one of their major errors too is having minor seminaries where kids as young as 10 live, to eventually "become priests."
We belong to the CATHOLIC CHURCH, not the MILITARY: and the military type orders with drill sargeants(some novice masters) and all must change.


#14

[quote=ByzCath]Right there, the definition of hearsay.

This is nothing more than nasty gossip and hearsay attacking a faithful religious order of the Church.

Most likely becuase it is an order that follows all the Church teachings and celebrates the Mass of the Church and is growing which goes against those who think Vatican II and the Mass are destroying the Church.
[/quote]

Now, OPUS DEI is good, and the Fraternity of St. Peter’s. This tells you I am not liberal, just like the thread poster’s priest friend, but truthful.


#15

[quote=misericordie]Now, OPUS DEI is good, and the Fraternity of St. Peter’s. This tells you I am not liberal, just like the thread poster’s priest friend, but truthful.
[/quote]

Really, just being truthful?

[quote=misericordie]I too agree with your priest friend, and MY best friend is a legion priest we grew up together. I have also heard
[/quote]

You are not being truthful, you are repeating what you have heard which is the definition of hearsay and it is gossip.

[quote=misericordie]It is because there are catholics who even deny there has EVER been a problem of secrecy in the church, that the clerical sexual abuse OVERALL has been IN the church. We must see what REALLY happenns in many orders and seminaries. Here I am talking now in GENERAL.
[/quote]

Yes this is one view but keep in mind that this was the way some religious orders worked in the past and there were no issues with it.

The sexual abuse scandal was not becuase of secrecy. Secrecy helped it happen but the reason it happened was the many bishops placed too much confidence in the psychological professionals who told them that the priests were “cured”.

I would love to see the break down of the numbers of the priests involved in the “sex scandal”. I would bet that the majority of the priests involved were diocesean priests and not religious order priests. Religious orders go though much more formation than dioceses do.

From this reply and your other posts you seem to have may issues with religious orders who do not work the way you think they should.

I would add, if the Legion of Christ does not give its constitutions out to everyone who asks for a copy does not mean that they are practicing secrecy, it may mean that they only give copies to those who need to see them and have a right to see them. That is something about americans, many think they have a right to know everything about everyone.


#16

[quote=ByzCath]Really, just being truthful?

You are not being truthful, you are repeating what you have heard which is the definition of hearsay and it is gossip.

Yes this is one view but keep in mind that this was the way some religious orders worked in the past and there were no issues with it.

The sexual abuse scandal was not becuase of secrecy. Secrecy helped it happen but the reason it happened was the many bishops placed too much confidence in the psychological professionals who told them that the priests were “cured”.

I would love to see the break down of the numbers of the priests involved in the “sex scandal”. I would bet that the majority of the priests involved were diocesean priests and not religious order priests. Religious orders go though much more formation than dioceses do.

From this reply and your other posts you seem to have may issues with religious orders who do not work the way you think they should.

I would add, if the Legion of Christ does not give its constitutions out to everyone who asks for a copy does not mean that they are practicing secrecy, it may mean that they only give copies to those who need to see them and have a right to see them. That is something about americans, many think they have a right to know everything about everyone.
[/quote]

Read your posts carefully on this topic=you are sounding apologetic towards the cover ups in the church regarding the sex abuse scandals. Believe me, the psychologists are not to blame, ummmmmmmm this is more in the Bishop’s realm. and in the religious order GENERAL Superiors and provincials. SECRECY is to blame in totality for the scandals. Also the fake image of being or thinking they are SUPERIOR in all to the Cathlic LAY person, against canon Law, Christifidelis Laici, Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, and THIS POPE’S own:,“Ecclesia de Mysterio” of 1997 which say that the main reasin the MINISTERIAL priesthood even exists is to SERVE the COMMON priesthood of the faithful who are baptised and Confirmed. Thank God for the MEDIA which has UNcovered much abuse secrecy, and thanks to the USCCB’s ZERO tolerance policy NOW. Some orders STILL don’t get it though, they still think it was never a problem all was fine just the way it was, and nothing was wrong, so lets continue with the secrecy and as ONE order which I know: they HAVE NO!!! PSYCHOLOGICAL EXAMS for their applicants and novices=this is VERY dangerous!!!


#17

A quick response although this if off the original thread:

“I would love to see the break down of the numbers of the priests involved in the “sex scandal”. I would bet that the majority of the priests involved were diocesean priests and not religious order priests. Religious orders go though much more formation than dioceses do.”

According to the John Jay study, the numbers are about the same. There was no distinction between religious and diocesean priests.
As far a Legion is concerned, in my own experience, they need a lesson in humility. I never had a positive encounter with a member of Legion. I usually end the conversation asking them to take a good, hard look at Chapter 7 of the Rule of Benedict, or the example of St. Francis, or the advice of the Desert Fathers. Regnum Christ, overall, have been more positive. Now, the Legion Brother who wrote the cool article in the National Catholic Register last December on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, he is why I still have hope for them!

PAX

Dan G.


#18

misericordie http://forums.catholic.com/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_409781”, true);
Senior Member

First I want to thank you for your posts on this thread. Being from Texas I know little of the LOC. You were there and do have some knowledge. Am I correct that you left because of a personal problem with one man?

I had a son accepted to the USMA (West Point) and if one wants to see 24 hour discipline enforced go there. They are forming an attitude and habits that an Officer must have. I approve of what he went through back before they admitted women. It was strict disipline! The disipline got to be a habit. I, myself went through Basic Training just before the Korean War, and it helped me all through my adult life.

Consider the lifestyle our young people have today. Most need disipline. I say without strong Disipline a Priest is “just another Priest”. He needs habits stimulated by discipline to excell. He also needs to have the habit of selfdenial - he is a servant.

'Tis better to have fewer strong men than an abundance of lazy men. I think St Ignatius de Loyola is an example of a strong disciplined man.
:tiphat:


#19

[quote=Exporter]misericordie http://forums.catholic.com/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_409781”, true);
Senior Member

First I want to thank you for your posts on this thread. Being from Texas I know little of the LOC. You were there and do have some knowledge. Am I correct that you left because of a personal problem with one man?

I had a son accepted to the USMA (West Point) and if one wants to see 24 hour discipline enforced go there. They are forming an attitude and habits that an Officer must have. I approve of what he went through back before they admitted women. It was strict disipline! The disipline got to be a habit. I, myself went through Basic Training just before the Korean War, and it helped me all through my adult life.

Consider the lifestyle our young people have today. Most need disipline. I say without strong Disipline a Priest is “just another Priest”. He needs habits stimulated by discipline to excell. He also needs to have the habit of selfdenial - he is a servant.

'Tis better to have fewer strong men than an abundance of lazy men. I think St Ignatius de Loyola is an example of a strong disciplined man.
:tiphat:
[/quote]

Are you saying Christ wants literal Military men formed by: yells, humiliations, be-littleing, insults, to be watched as they sleep to make sure hands are above covers as to make sure no “sins” are being comitted, that even the Coffee intake in monitered, where the novices and seminarians are Reprimanded in front of others, where even to use the restroom one must ask for “PERMISSION”, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,??? Ummm, does not seem what the Love of Christ and his CHARITY (by the way a theological virtue) are all about. Charity can acoplish all things. I belive prayer and the grace of God can FREELY change a person to holiness and discipline, not that their FREE WILL is ELIMINATED!! I cherish my God-given free will. Of course in a CHARITABLE way a superior has the right to DIALOGUE with his subject. But HUMILIATE, NO!!!


#20

[quote=misericordie]Are you saying Christ wants literal Military men formed by: yells, humiliations, be-littleing, insults, to be watched as they sleep to make sure hands are above covers as to make sure no “sins” are being comitted, that even the Coffee intake in monitered, where the novices and seminarians are Reprimanded in front of others, where even to use the restroom one must ask for “PERMISSION”, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,??? Ummm, does not seem what the Love of Christ and his CHARITY (by the way a theological virtue) are all about. Charity can acoplish all things. I belive prayer and the grace of God can FREELY change a person to holiness and discipline, not that their FREE WILL is ELIMINATED!! I cherish my God-given free will. Of course in a CHARITABLE way a superior has the right to DIALOGUE with his subject. But HUMILIATE, NO!!!
[/quote]

More hearsay and gossip.

How about providing some proof of your accusations?

Seems the Holy Father likes the Legion as does the Vatican after all they are a religious order and the Pope routinely ordains their priests and did you see the Holy Father’s Midnight Mass for Christmas? The seminarians of the Legion’s seminary in Rome served at it.

If you had personal issues with the Legion then do not join them. I talked with them when I was in the beginning of my discernment process. I decided against them, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t a good fit for others.


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