(SPLIT & Edited Title) Explaining the Eucharist to a non-Catholic

Della

I Will be 65 in a few months. Will also agree – the early church met with Much persecution. They scattered – and – they shared Jesus Christ Where ever they went. Without the persecution they Might have stayed put and only the Locals would have heard.
That’s My speculation.
Yes, we probably Could write a book about our lives that no one would believe. We’re all created to be unique people – so we all have our Own story to tell.
I’d like to refer Back to the John 6 passage – but comparing That with 1 Corinthians 11:20 - 29 or so. Referring to The Lord’s Supper / Communion. Guess it Could be called the Baptist’s perspective. Vs. 23 "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; vs 24 And when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” vs 25 "In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” vs 26 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.”
vs 27 "Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord is an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
vs 28 "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup,
vs 29 “Bot he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”

So - That is what ‘we’ base our Communion service on – In Remembrance of.

Also – about the Holy Spirit giving the saints the ability to hear our prayers and intercede for us when they are in heaven. That’s why you pray to Mary because she’s one of the saints in heaven. But what about 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for all…”
That Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the one Mediator because He was the Only One who died on the cross / shed His blood / His dead and bodily resurrection bridged the gap between us and God. No person did that. Only the Perfect Lamb of God / Jesus Christ Could do that. Because He was both man and God. :slight_smile:

Curious…what do you think St. Paul was referring to, when he says ‘…eat and drink JUDGMENT on himself, not DISCERNING the LORD’S BODY’?

How does one eat/drink judgment upon themselves, if it was merely a memorial ceremony?

…and what did Jesus mean by “this is my body…this is my blood”?

Yah! A fellow “oldster”! Ha! :wink:

Yes, that happened, but they weren’t without leadership. The Apostles went with them. James stayed in Jerusalem and was its first Bishop while Peter went to Rome, and Paul was an Apostle at Large to the Gentiles. The Church had form and order through all this time.

Yes, we probably Could write a book about our lives that no one would believe. We’re all created to be unique people – so we all have our Own story to tell.

Yes, I am looking forward to hearing all the stories about how God led us by his grace when we’re in heaven, if that is a part of the experience there. It’ll be wonderful, if it happens. :slight_smile:

I’d like to refer Back to the John 6 passage – but comparing That with 1 Corinthians 11:20 - 29 or so. Referring to The Lord’s Supper / Communion. Guess it Could be called the Baptist’s perspective. Vs. 23 "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; vs 24 And when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” vs 25 "In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” vs 26 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.”
vs 27 "Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord is an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
vs 28 "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup,
vs 29 “Bot he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”

So - That is what ‘we’ base our Communion service on – In Remembrance of.

Well, the word remembrance doesn’t simply mean to keep in mind, like a lost loved ones memory. Jesus said he would be with us always, so that’s not what he meant. It means to be reconnected once again. Also, the word remembrance, even if it meant simply to remember could not negate the rest of the passage that refers to Jesus saying “The is my body…this is my blood.” He didn’t say, “this is a remembrance of my body and blood” or “this symbolizes my body and blood.” Also, as another poster cited, no one could be “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” if there is no body and blood of the Lord. It doesn’t do to spiritualize away Jesus’ plain words in John 6 or St. Paul’s quoting what he either heard directly from the Lord or from the other Apostles the words Jesus said in the Upper Room. It is what it is. The Mass is centered around re-presenting the one sacrifice of Christ to the Father. Christ’s one sacrifice was offered in eternity, which is why it is effective for our salvation and why we can re-present it to the Father. If it weren’t an eternal offering we couldn’t draw upon it for saving grace. Does that make sense?

Also – about the Holy Spirit giving the saints the ability to hear our prayers and intercede for us when they are in heaven. That’s why you pray to Mary because she’s one of the saints in heaven. But what about 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Who gave Himself a ransom for all…”
That Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the one Mediator because He was the Only One who died on the cross / shed His blood / His dead and bodily resurrection bridged the gap between us and God. No person did that. Only the Perfect Lamb of God / Jesus Christ Could do that. Because He was both man and God. :slight_smile:

If we were to interpret this passage as you have, it would mean that no one but Jesus could offer prayers for us–those of us still living on earth as well as those in heaven. So, you could not pray for your loved ones and neither could I. That makes no sense. No, the passage refers to Jesus being our only means of justification with God, not being the only person who can intercede/pray for us. We all pray for each other daily. God wants us to pray for one another. That the saints in heaven, who are perfectly in line with God’s will, can pray for us is a part of being members of the Body of Christ, which transcend time and space. It is only through Christ’s one mediation that we can pray for one another, you see.

The cracker / juice Represents what happened on the cross. Christ suffered a great deal for us / in our place. The passage says to Not be taking lightly what the Communion service represents. We are NOT to treat this as we would ‘eating a snack because we’re hungry’ – We are Not to take this in a non challant manner.

Christ’s one sacrifice was offered in eternity? ‘eternity’ meaning What? Isn’t ‘eternity’ in the future. We’re in the present. The cross was a one-time event in History. And when it happened Jesus – on the cross just before He gave His life – said "It is finished’. No more need for Any sacrifice for sins. Why is there a Need for re-presenting Christ shedding His blood on the cross to God?

Also – we pray Through Jesus Christ – Anyone here on earth can pray at any time to God, just that it’s Through Jesus Christ rather than through Mary or any other person who is with Christ. Jesus Christ isn’t praying For us – we are praying Through Him.

Why would people in heaven be praying for Us? We would be praying for those we know - our loved ones that are here on earth. For people we know who are sick or having problems or thanking God for something. :slight_smile:

I just realized that I was reading part of 'Goya’s comment 1st – that’s what the 1st paragraph was about. As I was just ‘back tracking’ for Your post, I discovered 'Goya’s"

The Catholic Eucharist is the same, but more.

I have reminders of my mother. I have photos and videos of her, and I have small paintings she made and mementos of things that were special to her. These are the only things that she could leave to me and the rest of her family. She was unable to leave herself. But, if she had that capability, she would have done so.

Jesus had that capability. So he did not leave us with a mere memento of himself. He gave us himself. Every day. In all places. In all times. For all eternity, until time itself ceases.

For from the rising of the sun even unto its setting, my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure [unbloody] offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith the LORD of hosts. [Malachi 1:11]

God’s Word – The Lord’s Table / Communion service – Vs 24 --‘do this in remembrance of Me" – the same in vs 25 " in remembrance of Me".
Taking it in an unworthy manner? will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord? what does That mean? We Are to examine ourselves – our motives? Why are we there taking part in that Communion service? Because "Mom / Dad told us we Had to be there’? When we’d Much rather be somewhere else Doing something else? OR maybe a friend invited us to go / maybe we’re an atheist and we’re at the church with them just so they’ll leave us alone about the ‘church thing’.
Those Could be considered ‘unworthy manner’. – we’d be guilty of not appreciating or caring about what Jesus went through / the beatings just prior to And being hung on that cross and suffering that kind of death – Especially because He was There as the Son of God and was there In Our place. He was Innocent – didn’t Have to be there. He was up there on that cross - Doing for us what we Could NOT do for ourselves.

Why should a person feel a need to Add to that. You said the Eucharist is That plus More. But Why?

Yes, He Did ‘give us Himself’ / in the form of the Holy Spirit when He ascended back to heaven to the Father. He sent the Holy Spirit to be with us until we are united with Him for eternity. Acts 1. John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” AND Ephesians 1:13 " Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of His glory."

God’s Word is Wonderful :slight_smile:

What you are celebrating is what the Church would term a “spiritual communion”, which is fine, especially since your ministers do not have the ability to confect the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of the Lord. :slight_smile:

Christ’s one sacrifice was offered in eternity? ‘eternity’ meaning What? Isn’t ‘eternity’ in the future. We’re in the present. The cross was a one-time event in History. And when it happened Jesus – on the cross just before He gave His life – said "It is finished’. No more need for Any sacrifice for sins. Why is there a Need for re-presenting Christ shedding His blood on the cross to God?

For us eternity is in the future because we are living within the confines of time and space. But God lives in the eternal now. Hence he sees all times all at once. When Jesus offered his one sacrifice to the Father it was in the eternal now:

Heb. 9[11] But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
[12] he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
[13] For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,
[14] how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
[15] Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

This is a real offering of his body and blood, not merely a symbol of it. Since it is offered in eternity, it is always being offered. It’s hard for us to grasp this because we cannot imagine living apart from the successiveness of time. It’s a great mystery, but then, so too is the Incarnation and other mysteries of our faith.

A Catholic priest re-presents on the altar the bread and wine as Christ commanded, which becomes the body and blood of the Lord, as he said it would. How this happens we cannot say–it’s a mystery. But we take Jesus’ words for what they are. We don’t attempt to interpret them to mean something other than what he plainly said.

Also – we pray Through Jesus Christ – Anyone here on earth can pray at any time to God, just that it’s Through Jesus Christ rather than through Mary or any other person who is with Christ. Jesus Christ isn’t praying For us – we are praying Through Him.

Yes, this is true. We don’t need to pray through anyone else, but why not do it if they actually can pray for us? Do we not ask one another to pray for us, especially when we have a great need? Do we need to do that? No, we don’t, but we do so because we want their prayers and we know that we will benefit from their prayers.

Why would people in heaven be praying for Us? We would be praying for those we know - our loved ones that are here on earth. For people we know who are sick or having problems or thanking God for something. :slight_smile:

Those in heaven pray for us because they love us with brotherly love. We should all care about one another’s well being, physical/spiritual/emotional, etc. Take the recent typhoon in the Philippines, for example. Most of us know no one there and yet we are sending supplies and aid and praying for them. Why? Because we are fellow human beings who ought to care for one another as we able to. The bond between Christians in the Body of Christ is even closer than that of family members because we are one with them in Christ. Remember Jesus said that those in our own household would be against us, but those united to him would be our new family. The saints in heaven are our family in Christ. Why shouldn’t they pray for us who are still struggling with sin and all the vagaries of earthly life?

I just realized that I was reading part of 'Goya’s comment 1st – that’s what the 1st paragraph was about. As I was just ‘back tracking’ for Your post, I discovered 'Goya’s"

No problem. Responding on the forum can get quite crazy at times. I’ve done the same thing from time to time. :smiley:

What being in an unworthy state means is still having the stain of grave sin upon our hearts and souls. Let’s say someone embezzled a large amount of money from his boss. Should he partake of the body and blood of the Lord before repenting and making amends? Of course, he shouldn’t. Merely being unwilling to be in church or being in a bad mood isn’t grave enough to qualify. Indeed, in order to be guilty of grave sin one has to first know that it is grave, do it willingly, and do it deliberately. This is why we go to confession–to receive absolution for our sins, both grave and minor, as Jesus gave this power to his Apostles:

Jn. 20[19] On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
[20] When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] **If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **

Why should a person feel a need to Add to that. You said the Eucharist is That plus More. But Why?

The Eucharist confers saving grace, that’s the “more” he meant, if I may speak for him.

Yes, He Did ‘give us Himself’ / in the form of the Holy Spirit when He ascended back to heaven to the Father. He sent the Holy Spirit to be with us until we are united with Him for eternity. Acts 1. John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” AND Ephesians 1:13 " Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of His glory."

God’s Word is Wonderful :slight_smile:

Indeed, but he also gave himself to us in the Eucharist for our benefit. The sacraments that Jesus established confer grace upon us–graces that help us grow in faith, hope, and charity. You will notice that Jesus used earthly things to confer healing upon people, both physical as well as spiritual healing. He used mud, and his hands, and water made into wine, and so on. We are physical as well as spiritual beings. We see, hear, touch, and smell. Even in Baptist churches there is a cross on the wall and baptism is done in water. Why if they mean nothing? No, these things are used by God to give us real blessings of God’s grace. He knew we would need them–they are helps to our being joined to him, not barriers.

dear CrochetLady,

You answer your own questions, quite expressively, but the thing is that Catholic Teaching is not More than Jesus taught, but an interpretation of His word as meets the needs of people who in turn must face/confront the demands and temptations of modern life’s particular moral dilemmas and problems. We have abortion, birth control, capital punishment, etc as evils to cope with. If Jesus didn’t as you say ‘have to be there’, then I can see how one such as believes that, would be led to think everything is a choice. Free to receive or not. Free to go to hell or not. Very true, in fact!
But free to die or not? That’s a different level of reality, the physical. It’s our earthen body, and it must die and we must receieve a new body of light. We really believe that he had to die on the cross. If he didn’t, who can say what would have become of his mission on earth. So rather than saying the Catholic Church goes above Jesus (like some say they go above the Law), just think of it as fulfilling what Jesus began and keeps preserved even to this day.
I understand the rules on communion with the knowledge that those who reject Jesus will reject communion almost always. So if a person is serious, maybe he must have come in line with the morality of the Church. The rules are for you, not against you. If that person has come in line with the teaching, the process of becoming Catholic is available to all. He says that His yoke is sweet, and his burden is light.

All true re what scripture says. But we also know that even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest on earth. If a municipal power can commute sentence or forgive debt or whatever, how much more a saint in heaven? Or rather, why not? If your answer is ‘because they are now in heaven’, then an answer is still available: Appeals to the Saints make a lot of sense psychologically also. They lead us to god and to reconciliation within the body. Example, a saint of a particualar cause is said to lead to god with request for a particular miracle. Well, if we believe in that saint, and know a little about him or her, we are emboldened, empowered, by the spirit of faith in heaven and the elect to ask god for a miracle or answer. In the meanwhile, God, who hears all our prayers, looks over at the saint and says “He’s calling your name, you Here?” The saint in effect gives a gesture of approval and acknowledges his presence among the elect, and God then uses his power to investigate the person’s soul for corroboration of the truth. Of course we don’t know how this happens…Also, I can be assured that because a saint had a particular problem on earth like me, I might as well not lose hope. After all, I pray to Saint Jude. He is the patron of hopeless cases. He was servant and friend of Jesus The Lord’s case with Jews and Romans alike was hopeless. He was condemned. Jude couldn’t do a thing to save him that I know of. I would imagine that Jude was a wanted man for a time, like Jesus (I should know, but I don’t). If Jude went to heaven with a hopeless case, then I have a cause for happiness when I am hopeless.

Dear Crochet lady, read John 6 again and notice that when Jesus said that the would give his followers his body to eat and his blood to drink, some of them left him. they said this is intolerable. Then notice what Jesus did. He didn’t as on other occasions say to them “Oh you foolish people how slow to understand” “This is what I meant” He turned to his disciples and said to them “Will you also leave?” and Peter said to him “Lord to whom should we go, you have the words of everlasting life.” The disciples who left had understood Jesus very well, they just couldn’t accept what he said. Because for Jews to drink blood was forbidden. So why would Jesus say that he would give them his blood to drink if he didn’t mean it?
Also at the Last Supper he said “This is the cup of the New Covenant” What was the Old Covenant that they were celebrating that night? The Passover. What did they do at the Passover? They recalled the events of the Angel of Death passing over Egypt and killing the first born. The ones who had smeared their doorposts with the blood of the lamb were spared. What else did they do with the lamb? They ate it. This was a foreshadowing of the Eucharist. John the Baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God.
The early Church, those who learned from the Apostles believed that the Eucharist was the Body and Blood of the Lord. It was taught from the earliest times.
The idea that it is only a memorial is a new idea.
The reason why we celebrate the Eucharist today is because Christ told us to, and we apply the graces of his death and resurrection to us today. In John 6 when Jesus saw that they were arguing about what he had said, said to them: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day.” Could he make it any clearer than that?

Crochet lady,

I, too, was raised Protestant and was taught what you describe. However, I have attended the Catholic church for most of the last 25 years. I call myself a ‘Christian who attends the Catholic Church’, and am at this point am welcomed fully into my local church as a fellow Christian. As a Protestant-taught Christian, I believe very much in the personal study of scripture, so I decided to research what the bible says about this issue, trying very hard to free my mind of everything I had been taught about communion from both the Protestant and Catholic perspectives. * So - I re-read the accounts of the last supper in each of the Gospels. In each of the Gospel accounts, Christ says ‘This IS my body…’ and ‘This IS my blood…’. It does not say ‘This represents my body’, or ‘this represents my blood.’ Then, after hearing a lesson on John chapter 6, I re-read the chapter in detail - especially verses 41 through 71. What struck me is that Jesus insisted in 53-58 that ‘unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you shall not have life in you.’ And then - verse 60, 'many of his desciples said ‘this is a difficult statement, who can listen to it?’ That makes it seem pretty apparent that they understood Christ to be talking very literally – so literally that it was hard for them to ‘listen to it.’ In fact, verse 66 reveals that these words were so disturbing, so hard to listen to that 'for this reason many of his desciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore. They walked away – probably saying, ‘this guy is crazy. He is telling people that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood.’ AND…Jesus let them walk. He didn’t run after them saying ‘Wait! I was only speaking figuratively!’ No - he says ‘does this cause you to stumble?’, and '‘You do not want to go away also, do you?’ Hmmm…

So - I have adopted the viewpoint that there is something about communion which is truly ‘mysterious’ (to use the word from the eucharistic celebration). It is a mystery to me. I cannot understand this ‘mystery’, but I also cannot rule out the Catholic understanding. I also feel very much that the communion ceremony is something we are all called to do as Christians ‘in remembrance of him.’ As such, I also do not rule out the idea that when Protestants have communion, in some mysterious way they may be consuming the body and blood of Christ too - even if they don’t understand it that way. After all - the truth is the truth, even if we don’t accept it or understand it. This viewpoint has lead to an acceptance of other things which are truly ‘mysterious’ to me. I don’t understand many things, but I don’t rule them out and I certainly don’t try to convince other folks that their understanding is wrong.

The next evolution of this line of thought is the idea that these ‘apologetic arguements’ between Christians of different perspectives are usually a complete waste of God’s time. Nobody’s mind is changed - because nobody has an unbiased position to begin with, and nobody’s mind is usually open to really listening. The only thing which is accomplished here is that we, as Christians, are NOT focusing on the things which Christ really wants us to focus on. He wants us to be caring for the poor, the widows, the orphans, each other. He wants us to be serving one another. He wants us to be spreading the Good News of the Gospel. So why do we feel compelled to spend time trying to convince those who don’t want to be convinced? The Devil wants us to be arguing with each other. He baits us into these discussions. Christ said in response to his desciples describing others ‘who did not follow along with them’ casting out demons in Jesus’s name ‘If they are not against you, then they are for you’ (Luke 49-50). Thus, I would challenge everyone to ask themselves - would Jesus want us ‘defending’ the Christian faith … against other Christians? I think not! He would say something like ‘the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few! Why are you guys arguing amongst yourselves??? Did you not listen to me?’ There is much work to be done which we can all agree on. The details of the faith were not necessarily meant for us to understand - rather, they were meant for us to accept.

…and I am now welcome at the Catholic communion table with my family…as a catholic (universal) Christian.

Peace,
James*

crochet lady;11401957]

The cracker / juice Represents what happened on the cross. Christ suffered a great deal for us / in our place. *** The passage says to Not be taking lightly what the Communion service represents.*** We are NOT to treat this as we would ‘eating a snack because we’re hungry’ – We are Not to take this in a non challant manner.

No, the ‘passage’ doesn’t say we are ‘…not to take what is being represented lightly’–St. Paul says:

“…he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.”

Eating and drinking judgment on oneself, is pretty darn powerful, compared to ‘…not take it lightly’.

***Judgment = eternity; ***

‘not taking something lightly’, is pretty petty/temporal.

Second, Christ Himself said “This IS my body/blood”–not this ‘represents’ my body/blood.

Third, the early Church Fathers, who were directly instructed in the Faith by the Apostles–who were both present, and directly imbued by the Holy Spirit as the Pentacost–understood the Eucharist, exactly as St. Paul described it.

Christ’s one sacrifice was offered in eternity? ‘eternity’ meaning What? Isn’t ‘eternity’ in the future. We’re in the present. The cross was a one-time event in History. And when it happened Jesus – on the cross just before He gave His life – said "It is finished’. No more need for Any sacrifice for sins. Why is there a Need for re-presenting Christ shedding His blood on the cross to God?

Seems to me, a couple of pretty darn significant things happened after Christ uttered those words–i.e.–t***he Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Pentacost***.

Contrary to protestant apologetics, when Chirst said ‘it* is finished*’, He did not mean EVERYTHING was finished.

…and yet again, this protestant interpretation is in direct contradiction to how the Early Church Fathers interpreted this passage.

Also – we pray Through Jesus Christ – Anyone here on earth can pray at any time to God, just that it’s Through Jesus Christ rather than through Mary or any other person who is with Christ. Jesus Christ isn’t praying For us – we are praying Through Him.

Why would people in heaven be praying for Us? *** We would be praying for those we know - our loved ones that are here on earth.*** For people we know who are sick or having problems or thanking God for something. :slight_smile:

I just realized that I was reading part of 'Goya’s comment 1st – that’s what the 1st paragraph was about. As I was just ‘back tracking’ for Your post, I discovered 'Goya’s"

I’ll refrain from addressing your latter point, since it appears to have been addressed to someone else–though I will say that it seems to me that in your mind, you are excluding the deceased from the Body of Christ.

Please note that you isolated “Taking it in an unworthy manner?” from what makes us unworthy: NOT DISCERNING THE BODY OF CHRIST.

We defile the Eucharist, by taking it–without acknowledging that it is Body of Christ.

That’s how/why we “…eat/drink judgment on [ourselves].”

Any other interpretation, especially in contradiction to that of the Church Fathers, is pure spin.

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