(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

Great read

Thank you for the explanations. I’m not a expert on languages and have no right discussing the wording here. I’ve simply been taught such but am open to truth.

That being said, I’m going to ask in the “non Catholic religions” forum because I am genuinely curious on what was said.

I would be interested in that discussion.

See post 101 above.

The Jews had their priests / synagogues.

And this is relevant to “who holds the keys” how?:shrug:

Jesus Christ became our Only needed high priest after He died on the cross and rose again.

High priests do not preclude the existence of priests and never have. In fact, they actually infer them. Still, how is this relevant to “who holds the keys?”

Peter and Paul Both had important roles in the New Testament. And both of them also had other men working With them.

Ah…and yet Paul states plainly in Romans 15: "16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the** priestly** service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Just was reading in John 15 and 16:12 " But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own, he will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking what is mine and make it known to you. vs 16 “I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

And again, faithful Catholics have no problem at all with that passage and what it says, but it seems to fly in the face of the n-C lack of definitive authority that would supply an consistent doctrinal interpretation of scripture. Hence we are faced with the myriad of varied interpretations, most of which not only do not agree with each other, but with the verifiably authentic teachings of the early church and in fact with the Word of God itself, which is precisely what we see here in Mike Gendron’s article that you CL posted as being consistent with what you believe. How in the world do you reconcile all that?

There are So many comments I Could make on So many comments / subjects.

Well :smiley: you did join the forums of the 2nd largest Catholic site in the world. Did you expect to find nobody home?:slight_smile:

And, yes, there Are Many different churches ‘out there’ that teach lots of ‘things’. People are free to go to Any of them and compare Their teaching to what God’s Word says. Lots of people Don’t want to hear God’s Word. There was a Baptist church we went to for a while – discovered after a while that his sermons were from passages that didn’t really say very much. No real doctrine being taught – but he Did take obscure passages and tried to stretch their meaning to say things that he, the pastor, said they meant. My husband tried to talk with him, privately, and the pastor said that that was simply my husbands interpretation that differed from his. They Both had degrees. Part of the ‘problem’ is that people who see that degree by a person’s name assume that the person had extra-special Biblical knowledge and can be ‘trusted’ to preach the ‘truth’. So they just sit there and ‘accept’ what’s being ‘fed’ to them. But God , Himself, tells us to Study, meditate on His Word for ourselves. ASK the pastor / group teacher about Scripture when you have a question.

Sorry you guys had to endure that, but:shrug: that just proves our point all over again. Where is the authority that should correct such errant teachings? How do you know that your husband was correct and the pastor was wrong? (A somewhat rhetorical question. My point is that who is there to decide that issue with authority?)
(Cont’d)

And I HAVE been reading Isaiah 22 more lately. Trying to figure out more about what is being said and how it’s being applied. God is the Father, He’s given us Jesus – through the lineage of David. Joseph is in the lineage of David. And, obviously, Jesus Christ is.
In the Old Testament – New Testament – cities have walls, gates surrounding them to protect from the enemy. And faithful stewards are given the ‘key’ / power to let people in and out. To protect the ruler and the people from the enemy. The ‘king’ / leader of the people is often thought of as the ‘father’ / protector of the people. But in Revelation 20 or so – maybe 19 – God, Himself does the casting – the Book of Life is there – who’s name is written in That book is allowed into the New Jerusalem. Peter is NOT standing there Beside God ‘directing traffic’.

Again…not sure of relevance to this topic.

[Since you brought up the book of life in revelation though, I might point out that, as a Baptist, you probably believe in the doctrine of “eternal security of the believer” or OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved), am I correct? If so, I have to ask how you can resolve that with Revelation 3:[5] "He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot **his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels." ? Since to be saved, ones name has to be found in that same Book of Life and yet right here we see Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ telling us that some will have their names blotted out of that book. If their names were in there before, that means they were saved, right? …And if blotted out they are lost?]

BUT Satan Also gets into the picture by trying to deceive as many of us as possible.

And again, where is the needed authority to insure that that doesn’t happen? If, as Paul tells us God is not a God of confusion, then whence comes these confusions of doctrines?

And – every person has the privilege of reading God’s Word - for ourselves – what we Do with It is Also our personal responsibility. We Will all answer to God in the end.

Again…this is different from our Catholic faith how? Yet, I do not have the right nor the authority to decide correct Christian doctrines based upon my personal reading and study of the Bible alone…as I have pointed out before, look at the fruits of that outside of the Catholic Church.

There are two articles I’ve found – and I checked to make sure they can be located Again.

Exploring the Concept of Priesthood” which is from Christian Courier.com

")Is The Roman Catholic Church Apostolic**Part Two and is from Truth Magazine

They are 5 and 6 pages.

Baptism – Ephesians 2:8 & 9 '-- Not to be seen as a ‘good work’ Unto salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God through Jesus Christ. God’s grace IS sufficient – God doesn’t need any help from Us in our salvation.

As for translating God’s Word from what was Originally Hebrew/ Greek. No one seems to have a ‘problem’ with the translating from those original languages to the Latin Volgate. And That was the primary language for How Many years. And at some point God’s Word was translated into German and English, etc.

Each language has it’s own alphabet – no two are the same – So when translating from one language to another – there will be times when there is no word in the ‘new’ language that coincides with the ‘old’ language. And most languages have their ‘local idiums’ For instance we use phrases like ‘it’s raining cats and dogs outside’. We know we don’t mean literal cats and dogs are coming down from the sky. But we Do mean it’s raining really hard / fast. So we try to explain what we Really mean to someone trying to learn English. Many years ago I Was trying to help people of another language learn English / improve their English. It was an Interesting experience. So a questian gets asked 'why don’t you just say what you mean?" Good point.
But, as was mentioned - in the process of translating Any literature from one language to another – the translator takes the word / words that come the very closest possible in the context – and grammatical structure / tenses of words, etc.
And people CAN learn the Greek/ Hebrew if they choose to. My husband and brother-in-law Both took Greek in college.
And a person can get that on Internet, too. And learning about the cultural setting of books in Scripture. But all of that isn’t essential for being able to understand what our own Bible’s say. That’s why translators Do take time to get God’s Word into all sorts of languages. It doesn’t need to be foreign to Anyone.

Revelation 3:5 Is saying “I will Not blot out his name” Sounds like You are 'qualifying ’ that statement by suggesting that God Could blot a name out. And That would suggest that a person needs to be continually on his ‘guard’ about his actions. Why not be living a daily life For God and Not be living in a state of ‘fear’ / God’s Word tells that 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We Can know that we have eternal life through Jesus Christ’s gift of salvation. He knows the intents / thoughts of our heart. He knows the heart that is rebellious and the one that is seeking to live a Godly life. What a person is in their Heart Will be lived out in their life.

I got on This forum not having a clue about how active it was. Some Forums are Not very active / some Are. A person never knows what they’ll find on the Internet. :slight_smile:

" which is from Christian Courier.com

"Is The Roman Catholic Church Apostolic? (Part Two) and is from Truth Magazine

They are 5 and 6 pages. I’ll have a look and get back to you, okay?

I got on This forum not having a clue about how active it was. Some Forums are Not very active / some Are. A person never knows what they’ll find on the Internet. :slight_smile:

:smiley: Yeah, you found us. Funny how so many others, who say they want to talk about our most holy faith can’t seem to do as you did. :shrug:

I mean Catholic.com is pretty simple and Google shows it in the first half dozen entries under a simple search of Catholic. We don’t hide…and what we believe is here to be discussed with charity and concise facts. It’s like I said before, if those folks at CARM or any of the other anti-Catholic hotbeds want the truth…they know where to find us. :thumbsup:

The rest of that was all off topic, so, to keep from derailing this thread I’ll open a new one on OSAS/Eternal Security and your can make your case there, but I warn you now that it, like Sola Scriptura, will prove unscriptural.:wink:

Greetings in Christ,

Concerning the text of Matt.16:17-19, theologians have been debating for hundreds of years on the identity of the ROCK and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church and what is the meaning of the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and what it represents.

Who is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church?

According to the following Bible verses Is.28:16; Acts 4:12; Rom.9:33; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Eph.2:20; 1Pet.2:6-8:-

Jesus Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone of the Catholic Church.
Jesus Christ also is the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church with the APOSTLES and PROPHETS.
The Catholic Church built on the above foundation.

The teaching that Peter is the foundation of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church built on Peter is far from the truth.
1 Cor.3:11; Eph.2:19-20; Explains on whom the Catholic Church having been built.

What really the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN means or represents?

The keys are a symbol of authority (Mark 13:34).
THE key that open the door of Heaven is the Word of God the Scriptures (John 5:24).

No one can debate it:- If someone believes the Word of God the door of Heaven is open for him, if he rejects the Word of God then the door of Heaven remains shut for him.

No doubt, the WORD OF GOD and our faith in it or lack of faith in it, opens or shuts the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The WORD OF GOD is the key and it is up to us how we use that key.

God has given us the POWER and the AUTHORITY to use the WORD OF GOD (as the key) to open or shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven, it is up to us. – John 5:24; etc.

CAN WE UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD?

That totally depends on that we are on the spiritual position of the fall or we are on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

THIS BELOW IS THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL:-
If we are on this spiritual position, then we cannot understand the Word of God.

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. WE are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we do see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE BODY OF CHRIST:-
Every Born Again person is on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ and by relying on the teaching of the Holy Spirit able to understand the Word of God. – John 14:17, 26; John 16:13-15; 1 John 2:26-27.

The spiritual position of the Body of Christ is described in Cor.2:12-13, 15-16;

  • Understand the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
  • Able to judge the value of everything.
  • Have the mind of Christ.

Every Born Again person with the aid of the Holy Spirit able to understand the Word of God.

Furthermore for our PROTECTION, not to be victims of false prophets:- God’s has GIVEN US A COMMAND described in 1 Thess.5:21. “TEST ALL THINGS; hold fast what is good.”

In Acts 17:11 God has also given us an example the way we MUST OBEY HIS COMMAND. “… Receive the word (teaching) with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.”

In 1 John 2:26-27; We find God’s very important PROMISE:-

“These things I have written to you concerning those who try to DECEIVE you.
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you DO NOT NEED that ANYONE teach you; but as the same anointing TEACHES YOU CONCERNING ALL THINGS, and it is true, …”

SUMMARY:-
In the above Bible verses God PROMISES us:-

If we obey His COMMAND given to us for our protection in 1 Thess.5:21 in the way as it is described in Acts 17:11 the Holy Spirit will TEACH US CONCERNING ALL THINGS and we will NEVER be deceived by false doctrines.

We don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to know, if God didn’t give us the mental ability to understand His Word and the aid of the Holy Spirit to TEACH US CONCERNING ALL THINGS we could never obey the above COMMANDS of God and we could NEVER distinguish between true doctrines and the doctrines of “our uninvited guests.” – 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3.

Every Born Again person is able to understand the teachings of the Holy Spirit and for this very reason able to understand the Word of God as well. – 1 John 2:26-27!!!

With love in Christ,
LH

Can you explain the name change? And why Jesus gave Peter the keys? Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone or Keystone that ties the rest of the Church together. He is the Master Builder - the Church does not deny any of this. Still, Jesus said to Peter “you are rock and upon this rock I WILL BUILD”. Are you saying there is no significance to what Jesus said here? We have a name change, a declaration that a Church will be built, and keys being given. What for? Why say these things?

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John does not say that the Word of God is the Scriptures much less that it is the Key that was spoken of when Jesus said to Peter I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

To claim that Scripture is the keys is unsupported by the context of Scripture itself.

I have already posted this but it seems right to post it again from the NAB

The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from ⇒ Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (⇒ Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In ⇒ Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter’s exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.

Lion Heart #123 :slight_smile: :thumbsup:

adrift #125 John 1:1 - 3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word was God. vs 2 "He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
vs 14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us , and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of thej Father, full of grace and truth.”

1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 " Moreover , brethren, I declare to you the gospel ---- by which you are also saved. ---- that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scripture, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve" :).

Is the Word in John 1 scripture or Jesus?

This is from the first of Crochet Lady’s links above:-

C

atholic Priests Successors of Apostles

The Roman Catholic idea of a sacerdotal system of physical priests for today’s church has no support of the New Testament. It is based upon the fallacious notion that the apostles “were clothed with the powers of Jesus Christ,” and that Catholic priests, as “successors” of the apostles, are similarly endowed with their power (James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, Baltimore: John Murphy, 1917, p. 387ff). **The idea is closely associated with the delusion that in performing the “Mass,” the priests are sacrificing the body of Christ — a notion completely at variance with the Scriptures. The New Testament teaches that Jesus was sacrificed once, and that was entirely sufficient **(cf. Heb. 9:25-28).

It’s plain the person who wrote that had not got much of an idea about what Catholicism really teaches.

This is the question that I asked also. Your post doesn’t say which it is.

The Gospel that 1 Corinthians speaks about is not Mathew, Luke, Mark, and John but the “Good News” that Jesus has died for our sins. The Scripture mentioned is not the New Testament.

Isn’t the answer right there in vs 14?

I am trying to clear up what crochet lady believes. I am confused by her answer that is why
I would like to see her answer to ShanPO

Is the Word in John 1 scripture or Jesus?

Allow me too assist.

Greek for Word = Logos, greek for scripture = graphe. Apparently they are not necessarily one in the same.

You are right but I still await crotchet Lady to clear up what she meant.

Yes, I agree. I’d like to see what she says in response to that because I think there’s an important and significant difference in authentic interpretation there.

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