SPLIT: Penance is for punishment of sins?


#1

[quote="catholictiger, post:12, topic:306254"]
if you are sorry for the sins that you committed and seek repentance from God through confession your sins are forgiven.

there really isn't any necessary action by the penitent other then being sorry and truthfully confessing his sins.

remember for a sacrament to be valid it needs form (I absolve you) matter (the penitent or sin not sure) and intent (person is sorry for what he did)

There is even the possibility for a valid confession without having to confess your sins, but this would only be allowed in extreme conditions. For example a catholic firefighter can have a valid confession with general absolution if his life is in immediate danger for going into a building with an out of control fire. If he survives he must go to confession after.

if the number of times you confess something is necessary for the forgiveness of sin general absolution would be impossible.

note:confessing the number of times you have done a sin is good because a priest can give you a better penance which is necessary to pay the debt of punishment. In order to have the debt of punishment forgiven a person must mention that sin in confession, if he/she forgets to mention a sin committed that sin is forgiven but you still have to pay the punishment for that sin.

[/quote]

Now this I do not understand: your mention of paying a debt of punishment..

We do not 'pay the punishment' for ANY sins because that's what Jesus did when he died on the cross - He paid the punishment for our sins. If you think we then also have to pay a debt, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and that you have to earn remission of your sins by your own efforts, and this is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. There is NOTHING any of us can do to pay the debt for our sins - that is why we accept Jesus as the Lamb who died for us and only by His Blood is our debt paid.

This is why Jesus came and why He died, to become the ultimate and the final sacrifice, the perfect (without blemish) sacrifice for our sins (Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 1:19). Through Him, the promise of life eternal with God becomes effective through faith to those who believe in Jesus. “So that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe” (Galatians 3:22). These two words “faith” and “believing” are critical to our salvation. It is through our believing in the shed blood of Christ for our sins that we receive eternal life.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The penance a priest gives a penitent sinner in no way pays ANY debt. Jesus' death paid that debt.


#2

[quote="Zeno11, post:1, topic:306426"]
Now this I do not understand: your mention of paying a debt of punishment..

We do not 'pay the punishment' for ANY sins because that's what Jesus did when he died on the cross - He paid the punishment for our sins.

[/quote]

(note my posts above as to where the understanding was not completely correct as to the reason one must confess in number all mortal sins)

But as to the Penance. This is what the Church means:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Satisfaction

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.64

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#VII


#3

[quote="Zeno11, post:1, topic:306426"]
Now this I do not understand: your mention of paying a debt of punishment..

We do not 'pay the punishment' for ANY sins because that's what Jesus did when he died on the cross - He paid the punishment for our sins. If you think we then also have to pay a debt, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and that you have to earn remission of your sins by your own efforts, and this is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. There is NOTHING any of us can do to pay the debt for our sins - that is why we accept Jesus as the Lamb who died for us and only by His Blood is our debt paid.

This is why Jesus came and why He died, to become the ultimate and the final sacrifice, the perfect (without blemish) sacrifice for our sins (Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 1:19). Through Him, the promise of life eternal with God becomes effective through faith to those who believe in Jesus. “So that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe” (Galatians 3:22). These two words “faith” and “believing” are critical to our salvation. It is through our believing in the shed blood of Christ for our sins that we receive eternal life.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The penance a priest gives a penitent sinner in no way pays ANY debt. Jesus' death paid that debt.

[/quote]

simple question for you

if Jesus paid the debt of punishment at the passion why is there purgatory and why is there penance? Actually why is there confession at all?

after you explain it I'll try to explain why we have to do penance and such.

note debt of punishment was first preached by Aquinas


#4

aaa


#5

for your reading enjoyment

newadvent.org/summa/2087.htm#article6


#6

First, it bears pointing out that there are three parts to repentance--contrition, confession, and bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance (this last part is often called "satisfaction.") (note: the DRV which I am citing uses the phrase "do penance" or the word "penance" in the place many translations use "repent" and "repentance" but the meaning is the same):
Acts 26:20 But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.
(see also Matt. 3:8, Luke 3:8)

Now, there are various ways by which one brings forth fruit worthy of repentance or, in other words, makes satisfaction for sins. This is done through prayer, acts of charity, and self-denial, etc but also suffering through the punishments that God may send Himself (note here that Jesus' death on the Cross has not removed these temporal punishments).
Heb. 12:[5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [7] Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

The Church from the very beginning also prescribed such acts of satisfaction. One common one, early on, was cutting the sinner off from the sacraments for a period of time (this is still common in the East and for certain more serious sins in the West). St. Paul prescribes such satisfaction for the incestuous man in Corinth here:
1 Cor. 5:[3] I indeed, absent in body, but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, him that hath so done, [4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus; [5] To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Later, the Church adopted other forms of satisfaction in different times and places (such as prayer, alms giving, fasting, etc.).

As an aside, Purgatory refers to this satisfaction--or bring forth fruits worthy of repentance--being made after death, if not done during this life. From the Council of Florence:

"Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains."


#7

[quote="catholictiger, post:3, topic:306426"]
simple question for you

if Jesus paid the debt of punishment at the passion why is there purgatory and why is there penance? Actually why is there confession at all?

after you explain it I'll try to explain why we have to do penance and such.

note debt of punishment was first preached by Aquinas

[/quote]

This is what the Bible has to say:

As St Peter says, “You know that you were ransomed ... with the precious blood of Christ” (1 Pet 1:18). Scripture also assures us of the many fruits of Christ’s sacrifice. By means of his sacrifice, Jesus has: repaid our debt of guilt (Mt 20:28); gained mercy for us and repealed our punishment (Mt 26:28); defeated the claims of the devil over us (Jn 12:31); reconciled us to God (2 Cor 5:19); and fulfilled Scripture and salvation history (Col 1:20)

When Jesus died on the cross, didn’t He say, “It is finished?”

John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
Isaiah 53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
1 Peter 3:18 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”
1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation (atonement) for our sins; and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Jesus took our place on the Cross, took our sins upon Himself and died for our sins.
1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Revelation 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

So I think it is quite clear that the debt of our sins was paid in full by Jesus.

I see Penance as a means of expressing our heartfelt sorrow for having fallen into sin, not as something that 'earns' us forgiveness; this would be against the word of God:

Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Gal. 3:21-22).
And again:
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).

Our debt is paid in full and we are justified only by the blood of Jesus and the grace of God. Forgiveness of our sins is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or a combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). There is nothing you or I or anyone else could ever do to atone for our sins, which you seem to think we can through penance.

Purgatory is probably where you go when you have** unconfessed sins **which are not deadly enough to send you to hell but still prevent you from entering heaven. I know that the deeper my relationship grows with Christ, the more I realise that things I didn't think twice about in the past were actually sinful, and I imagine that is something that happens to most of us. So probably most of us die with some residue of unconfessed sins.

And of course confession is necessary, because even though Jesus paid the debt for our sins, we have to repent and confess every time we fall; that is a condition of salvation. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins he (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


#8

[quote="Zeno11, post:7, topic:306426"]
This is what the Bible has to say:

[/quote]

why would you ignore what the church fathers have to say?

As St Peter says, “You know that you were ransomed ... with the precious blood of Christ” (1 Pet 1:18). Scripture also assures us of the many fruits of Christ’s sacrifice. By means of his sacrifice, Jesus has: repaid our debt of guilt (Mt 20:28); gained mercy for us and repealed our punishment (Mt 26:28); defeated the claims of the devil over us (Jn 12:31); reconciled us to God (2 Cor 5:19); and fulfilled Scripture and salvation history (Col 1:20)

When Jesus died on the cross, didn’t He say, “It is finished?”

John 1:29 "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
Isaiah 53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
1 Peter 3:18 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”
1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation (atonement) for our sins; and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Jesus took our place on the Cross, took our sins upon Himself and died for our sins.
1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Revelation 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.”

So I think it is quite clear that the debt of our sins was paid in full by Jesus.

I see Penance as a means of expressing our heartfelt sorrow for having fallen into sin, not as something that 'earns' us forgiveness; this would be against the word of God:

Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Gal. 3:21-22).
And again:
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).

Our debt is paid in full and we are justified only by the blood of Jesus and the grace of God. Forgiveness of our sins is achieved through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not by our works, or a combination of our works and God's grace, because our works are nothing more than filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). There is nothing you or I or anyone else could ever do to atone for our sins, which you seem to think we can through penance.

Purgatory is probably where you go when you have** unconfessed sins **which are not deadly enough to send you to hell but still prevent you from entering heaven. I know that the deeper my relationship grows with Christ, the more I realise that things I didn't think twice about in the past were actually sinful, and I imagine that is something that happens to most of us. So probably most of us die with some residue of unconfessed sins.

And of course confession is necessary, because even though Jesus paid the debt for our sins, we have to repent and confess every time we fall; that is a condition of salvation. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins he (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I respect the fact that you are bringing scripture into this debate, but does the church back this up in her Teaching, either from magisterial documents or patristic fathers teaching.

without this I can't know if this is your own personal interpretation or the interpretation of the church.

but to make it clear there are three things that are incurred by sin

first guilt of stain of sin (this is forgiven by christ in what you bring up, this is what sends you to hell if unforgiven)

second debt of Punishment (this is the satisfaction due to God due to Sin, the grace of God is what makes it possible to even pay for this, this is actually kinda complex how this works or it is for me, paid by the penance)

third corruption of the natural good (this is when sin makes you less able to do the good)


#9

[quote="catholictiger, post:8, topic:306426"]
why would you ignore what the church fathers have to say?

I respect the fact that you are bringing scripture into this debate, but does the church back this up in her Teaching, either from magisterial documents or patristic fathers teaching.

without this I can't know if this is your own personal interpretation or the interpretation of the church.

but to make it clear there are three things that are incurred by sin

first guilt of stain of sin (this is forgiven by christ in what you bring up, this is what sends you to hell if unforgiven)

second debt of Punishment (this is the satisfaction due to God due to Sin, the grace of God is what makes it possible to even pay for this, this is actually kinda complex how this works or it is for me, paid by the penance)

third corruption of the natural good (this is when sin makes you less able to do the good)

[/quote]

Jesus told us to 'Repent and believe the Gospel' Mark 1:15. He didn't tell us to go and study theology or to make complicated what is very simple, or to add hundreds of rules and regulations and interpretations to His word. I trust Jesus and His revealed Word, so frankly I haven't a clue what the church fathers taught on the subject!


#10

[quote="Zeno11, post:9, topic:306426"]
Jesus told us to 'Repent and believe the Gospel' Mark 1:15. He didn't tell us to go and study theology or to make complicated what is very simple, or to add hundreds of rules and regulations and interpretations to His word. I trust Jesus and His revealed Word, so frankly I haven't a clue what the church fathers taught on the subject!

[/quote]

simple question for you who is the word of God and isn't the Gospels the word of God?

but devine revleation isn't fully contained only in sacred scripture Christ entrusted his Gospel to the Church and because of this the Church is the sole authority on Devine revelation. The Church has made clear what penance is for, satisfaction for sins.

I would love to have a deep discussion on scripture and confession but I don't think I have enough of a grasp on it and I don't have the time to have a theological discussion on this.

I hope you understand that the Catholic Church is more then just a certain interpretation of Sacred Scripture.


#11

[quote="catholictiger, post:10, topic:306426"]
simple question for you who is the word of God and isn't the Gospels the word of God?

but devine revleation isn't fully contained only in sacred scripture Christ entrusted his Gospel to the Church and because of this the Church is the sole authority on Devine revelation. The Church has made clear what penance is for, satisfaction for sins.

I would love to have a deep discussion on scripture and confession but I don't think I have enough of a grasp on it and I don't have the time to have a theological discussion on this.

I hope you understand that the Catholic Church is more then just a certain interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

[/quote]

Simple answer: Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, and the gospels are the word of God. That's why I quoted them and not church fathers!

I'm not sure about your second claim, that divine revelation isn't fully contained in sacred scripture. In fact the Bible urges us to study and reflect, not to look to other people for meaning but to look to the living word of God.
Jesus commands us all to understand His words - Mark 7:14. The Bible was written, not just for specially trained religious leaders, but for all people. Every one of these people that Jesus addressed were commanded to hear and understand what He said.
Jesus' teachings were worded such that the average person can understand them if he studies and meditates diligently (cf. Acts 17:11). But we are warned not to follow doctrines of men: doctrines from men make our service to God vain (Matt. 15:9).

Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 14:12 - The way a man should walk is not found within man himself. A way may seem right to men yet result in death. We must trust in God's word, not in human wisdom.

So I would never put anyone's interpretation above the word of God.


#12

[quote="Zeno11, post:11, topic:306426"]
Simple answer: Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, and the gospels are the word of God. That's why I quoted them and not church fathers!

[/quote]

so everything Jesus ever said did or taught is contained in Sacred Scripture, meaning that all we have to look at is sacred scripture to get our understanding?

I hope you understand the church doesn't agree with or teach sola scriptura

I'm not sure about your second claim, that divine revelation isn't fully contained in sacred scripture.

yes and sacred scripture itself show us this.

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe** that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.**

[quote]In fact the Bible urges us to study and reflect, not to look to other people for meaning but to look to the living word of God.

no doubt, but does it say that when it comes to the theological understanding we should trust our own view of scripture and not someone elses. What do you think the cause of there being some 440,000 denominations in the world all preaching different things from the same bible is?

Jesus commands us all to understand His words - Mark 7:14. The Bible was written, not just for specially trained religious leaders, but for all people. Every one of these people that Jesus addressed were commanded to hear and understand what He said.

I never said this, I believe everyone should read scripture and come to understand it fully.

Jesus' teachings were worded such that the average person can understand them if he studies and meditates diligently (cf. Acts 17:11).

yes this is true but this doesn't mean that we can use our own personal interpretations of it, it doesn't mean we can start our own new church because we disagree with what pastor bob says about revelation.

but when I read acts 17:11 I didn't get the idea that if we study the teachings of christ we can easily understand them what it sounds like is taht the jews we taught something then went to sacred scripture to see if that teaching is true. This is a very catholic thing to do.

But we are warned not to follow doctrines of men: doctrines from men make our service to God vain (Matt. 15:9).

the teachings of the Catholic Church are founded on Devine revelation and none of it is contrary to Devine revelation.

Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 14:12 - The way a man should walk is not found within man himself. A way may seem right to men yet result in death. We must trust in God's word, not in human wisdom.

I don't disagree

So I would never put anyone's interpretation above the word of God.

the church doesn't either it uses the word of God to guide its teachings and doctrines. Its teachings is founded on the Word of God itself. t
[/quote]


#13

[quote="Zeno11, post:1, topic:306426"]
Now this I do not understand: your mention of paying a debt of punishment..
We do not 'pay the punishment' for ANY sins because that's what Jesus did when he died on the cross - He paid the punishment for our sins. If you think we then also have to pay a debt, then you are saying that Jesus' sacrifice was incomplete and that you have to earn remission of your sins by your own efforts, and this is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. There is NOTHING any of us can do to pay the debt for our sins - that is why we accept Jesus as the Lamb who died for us and only by His Blood is our debt paid.

This is why Jesus came and why He died, to become the ultimate and the final sacrifice, the perfect (without blemish) sacrifice for our sins (Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 1:19). Through Him, the promise of life eternal with God becomes effective through faith to those who believe in Jesus. “So that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe” (Galatians 3:22). These two words “faith” and “believing” are critical to our salvation. It is through our believing in the shed blood of Christ for our sins that we receive eternal life.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The penance a priest gives a penitent sinner in no way pays ANY debt. Jesus' death paid that debt.

[/quote]

Mankind was ransom captive to sin, so Jesus Christ bought us out of slavery, which is our redemption. [Latin *redemptio, a buying back, redemption.] To become like Christ (after our redemption) and be glorified along with him, we must suffer along with Christ. The penance is for reparation not redemption. We must break our attachments to sin. In that sense we are still in bondage to sin, when we sin after our baptism, and there is a metaphorical debt.

James 2 20-24

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called the friend of God. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 8 16-17:

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.


#14

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