SPLIT: Restoration of Catholic traditions needed

I have been thinking about this for some time -- it should not be difficult! It is the Mass! There should be no ego and certainly no thought about entertaining or theater, or any ulterior motive at all. If Catholics don't want to praise the Father and offer Jesus to the Father and RECEIVE Jesus into their own hearts, souls, and bodies, getting them there "by any means" just seems immoral.

The Mass is perfect as sacrifice and what is done prior to and following the offering must be simple and beautiful. The prayers are written, presumably by experts finding precise words for the day's celebration. They can be sung or merely prayed. That should be enough participation by the congregation, other than actually making the sacrifice their own.

The sweat that goes into what extraneous songs to sing seems so unnecessary. Have Adoramus or some other publisher put together a few Catholic hymns for the times preceding and following all of the prayers written and intended for that Mass. Please don't have Martin Luther or Charles Wesley or other Protestant ministers or laity standing at the podium by proxy making all of our Masses ecumenical prayer services. Bring back Catholic musical tradition; but leave that to the time outside of the Mass itself.

Put the choir back where it belongs -- out of sight! The congregation should not have to watch the music director go through his/her gyrations and the choir shift and shuffle. We should be focused entirely on the altar and on what is going on there. Giving musicians center stage and making the songs during the Sacrifice what the people come for is just wrong!

I realize that in the years since Vatican II, pastors have felt they must find an active liturgical role for as many of their people as possible and the emphasis has been on getting women involved in the liturgy. We have seen the abuses thereby created. The fact of the matter is that the liturgy should consist of the priest-celebrant(s), the altarboys, and the lector (preferably male). All others who want to be Catholic and help with the Church should do so by praying, helping with the coffee and donuts, visiting the ill and the imprisoned, volunteering with the parish and school, studying the Bible and Church scholars, etc. There is plenty to be done and more; but just because the Mass is the most visible and most important part of being a Catholic does not make it fair game for everyone who has the desire to participate therein!

[quote="Brownginger, post:1, topic:177507"]
I have been thinking about this for some time -- it should not be difficult! It is the Mass! There should be no ego and certainly no thought about entertaining or theater, or any ulterior motive at all. If Catholics don't want to praise the Father and offer Jesus to the Father and RECEIVE Jesus into their own hearts, souls, and bodies, getting them there "by any means" just seems immoral.

The Mass is perfect as sacrifice and what is done prior to and following the offering must be simple and beautiful. The prayers are written, presumably by experts finding precise words for the day's celebration. They can be sung or merely prayed. That should be enough participation by the congregation, other than actually making the sacrifice their own.

The sweat that goes into what extraneous songs to sing seems so unnecessary. Have Adoramus or some other publisher put together a few Catholic hymns for the times preceding and following all of the prayers written and intended for that Mass. Please don't have Martin Luther or Charles Wesley or other Protestant ministers or laity standing at the podium by proxy making all of our Masses ecumenical prayer services. Bring back Catholic musical tradition; but leave that to the time outside of the Mass itself.

Put the choir back where it belongs -- out of sight! The congregation should not have to watch the music director go through his/her gyrations and the choir shift and shuffle. We should be focused entirely on the altar and on what is going on there. Giving musicians center stage and making the songs during the Sacrifice what the people come for is just wrong!

I realize that in the years since Vatican II, pastors have felt they must find an active liturgical role for as many of their people as possible and the emphasis has been on getting women involved in the liturgy. We have seen the abuses thereby created. The fact of the matter is that the liturgy should consist of the priest-celebrant(s), the altarboys, and the lector (preferably male). All others who want to be Catholic and help with the Church should do so by praying, helping with the coffee and donuts, visiting the ill and the imprisoned, volunteering with the parish and school, studying the Bible and Church scholars, etc. There is plenty to be done and more; but just because the Mass is the most visible and most important part of being a Catholic does not make it fair game for everyone who has the desire to participate therein!

[/quote]

[edited] Adoremus is not the only publisher of hymns, nor the official publisher. Many Catholic find the hymns conducive to worship. If you do not, that is only your opinion and should not be a Catholic universal based on a few people's preference.

None of this has anything to the accusation that laid at ministers.

Let the bishops decide what is best for their dioceses and lay opinions to take a back seat.

aaa

If you notice, I mentioned that Adoramus could be the publisher, not that it was the only one or the official one. I was merely presenting my opinion; but it is an educated opinion and the music consisting of the Mass prayers should be sufficient to be conducive to worship.

Many people of the modern Age cannot understand what the Mass is. Is not Jesus offering Himself for our sins and giving us the opportunity to join Him in offering ourselves great incentive to worship? Should we not be watching the priest and meditating on Jesus dying on the Cross at the very time the music director is having us sing ten verses of some song written during the Protestant Revoilution by a Papist-hating Eucharist-denying minister? Should we not be silently preparing ourselves to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus at the very time we are instead singing an evangelical pop hit about togetherness and how great we are to have come to Mass? Does having ten or twelve lay people running around the sanctuary at Communion time enhance your feeling of piety?

It is generally agreed among professionals that simpler is better. Calling someone a "minister" does not make him/her indispensable to the liturgical celebration. There are so many things that have become entrenched in our liturgy just because someone mistakenly thought they were what the teachings of Vatican II had mandated. Mistakes were made and it will take as many generations to rid the liturgy of them as it did to make them seem indispensable.

Hopefully before I die there will come a time when I will never again have to listen to a song from the Lutheran or Methodist Hymnal at a Catholic Mass. Hopefully that will also mean that our brothers who now are Lutherans or Methodists will have joined with Catholics and love their new Faith enough to follow its traditions! It is shameful that Catholics are so eager to turn their backs on their own traditions and "steal" the musical traditions of other denominations. The music may be beautiful and the words theologically correct, but they do not have the beauty of being CATHOLIC.

[quote="Brownginger, post:4, topic:177507"]
Hopefully before I die there will come a time when I will never again have to listen to a song from the Lutheran or Methodist Hymnal at a Catholic Mass.

[/quote]

If you attend a Mass that uses a hymnal from a Lutheran or Methodist publisher, then that would be a unique situation. It you are referring to hymns that are written by someone who is not a Catholic, it is not a discipline of the Catholic Church that all hymns must be written by Catholics, or whether the author is holy enough to compose, or anything of that sort. I have never heard that it was such a discipline, although it might have been. In any case, it is certainly not a Catholic tradition.

I believe it is far more important that the Catholic faithful to be obedient to the Catholic Church. I find it a great irony someone who complains about lay participation and yet, as a lay person, has such strong opinions about the way they bishops should be running the Church differently. I have no problems with anyone having an opinion, I just find this particular contradiction to be, well, a contradiction.

I love the richness of hymns, as do many others. I have no misunderstanding of the meaning of the Mass, the need for piety or the necessity of preparing to receive the Eucharist. For me, the whole issue is a false dichotomy. I do believe it is helpful to the faithful to provide the type of Mass that is conducive to all and not just those that like it my way or your way. The bishops set the guidelines and the priest make many decisions on how this is best accomplished. Sure they may fail in this at times, if by fail we mean not please everyone, but it is their job and not ours.

I agree.

About the music specifically... at Thanksgiving mass today, the closing song was America the Beautiful (I'm restraining myself from saying more on this particular song choice....) and people sang it loudly because they actually knew and liked the song.

So why can't they get the hint and sing a select few very beautiful and traditional catholic hymns again?? How can we be the only ones who see this??

Pnewton: imagine my horror when I saw that our books (OCP) have songs written by LUTHER?!?

We aren't the only ones!:D I used to believe that I was alone -- and that I was wrong, especially when I realized that I had been singing from the Evangelical pop hits at the Mass regularly celebrated by our Archbishop! I had never looked at the bottom of the songs to see the origin of the words until I saw one young couple at one of those Masses check the composer and then put the songsheet down and remain silent.

Then I checked the selections in the regular hymnal and, like you, I was amazed and very puzzled at how this could happen. I began to study the situation and my amazement turned to energy to question many things that are happening and have been happening that, like little robots, we have accepted because the Bishops said we had to.

I guess it is not a revolutionary statement anymore, thanks be to God, that we can actually refuse to go along with what we feel in our gut to be wrong even though our Bishop has given it his approval, tacitly or explicitly. It is similar to what is going on in the federal government now. We do not have to accept error, ecclesiastical or political. We must realize that we are empowered by our Baptism and our citizenship to fight to restore the Church in this country and this country itself to their pristine beginnings.

I understand those who believe we are wrong -- like pnewton. They have been indoctrinated by those who want to continue along the path that began in the years immediately following Vatican II. It does no good to argue with them. Just stay true to your Catholic roots, mention to your pastor and the music director your grievance regarding the musical selections you have doubts about, and pray that we will soon see improvement. I am sure you know that the Church works exceedingly slowly and there are still many progressive Bishops who will be around for a long time to stop such improvement; but the Holy Spirit will watch over those who are resolute in their efforts to return to unblemished Catholicism.

[quote="Brownginger, post:1, topic:177507"]
I have been thinking about this for some time -- it should not be difficult! It is the Mass! There should be no ego and certainly no thought about entertaining or theater, or any ulterior motive at all. If Catholics don't want to praise the Father and offer Jesus to the Father and RECEIVE Jesus into their own hearts, souls, and bodies, getting them there "by any means" just seems immoral.

The Mass is perfect as sacrifice and what is done prior to and following the offering must be simple and beautiful. The prayers are written, presumably by experts finding precise words for the day's celebration. They can be sung or merely prayed. That should be enough participation by the congregation, other than actually making the sacrifice their own.

The sweat that goes into what extraneous songs to sing seems so unnecessary. Have Adoramus or some other publisher put together a few Catholic hymns for the times preceding and following all of the prayers written and intended for that Mass. Please don't have Martin Luther or Charles Wesley or other Protestant ministers or laity standing at the podium by proxy making all of our Masses ecumenical prayer services. Bring back Catholic musical tradition; but leave that to the time outside of the Mass itself.

Put the choir back where it belongs -- out of sight! The congregation should not have to watch the music director go through his/her gyrations and the choir shift and shuffle. We should be focused entirely on the altar and on what is going on there. Giving musicians center stage and making the songs during the Sacrifice what the people come for is just wrong!

[/quote]

As a music minister, I happen to agree with you. :thumbsup:

\The fact of the matter is that the liturgy should consist of the priest-celebrant(s), the altarboys, and the lector (preferably male).\

**The fact of the matter is that the liturgy involves more than just the various ministers (which would reduce it to a theatrical performance), but the faithful assisting at it as well.

Did you know that most of Luther's hymns were actually either direct translations of Latin plainsong hymns, or paraphrases of them? Example: Komm, Heiliger Geist, Herr Gott is based on Veni Creator Spiritus.

And Charles Wesley's hymns have sounder doctrine than a lot of stuff sung at the average parish.**

Good for Martin and Charles!

Good point. Deacons, too, of course, and a Psalmist and Cantor are officially called for as well. They can be the same person but the Psalmist, if I recall, is supposed to do the Responsorial Psalm from the Ambo.

I do agree in general on restoring the ancient traditions that many parishes threw out after Vatican II. And EMHCs are not supposed to be a regular occurrence (I wouldn’t mind if they went away entirely). Some hymns written by Wesley and so on are beautiful and theologically correct hymns and I don’t see anything wrong with using those.

[quote="Brownginger, post:4, topic:177507"]

Hopefully before I die there will come a time when I will never again have to listen to a song from the Lutheran or Methodist Hymnal at a Catholic Mass.

[/quote]

Go to a Tridentine Latin Mass. It's beautiful and you won't find these protestant hyms. :thumbsup:

I suppose you would have to get rid of organ voluntaries by Bach too? It seems a shame to me.

[quote="Brownginger, post:7, topic:177507"]

I guess it is not a revolutionary statement anymore, thanks be to God, that we can actually refuse to go along with what we feel in our gut to be wrong even though our Bishop has given it his approval, tacitly or explicitly. It is similar to what is going on in the federal government now. We do not have to accept error, ecclesiastical or political. We must realize that we are empowered by our Baptism and our citizenship to fight to restore the Church in this country and this country itself to their pristine beginnings.

I understand those who believe we are wrong -- like pnewton.

[/quote]

This is precisely what Martin Luther believed he did. His "gut" told him that the bishops of his day were wrong and he fought for his principles. Today, we have groups like Call to Action who follow their "gut" and fight for women priests, gay rights and freedom for abortion. Opening up a rebellous spirit is a tough genie to put back in the bottle. Once we raise ourselves above the Church it is hard to remain obedient. Even David knew better than to lay hands on the Lord's annointed.

I do not think you are wrong for your opinion. I only think you are mistaken that your opnion should be imposed on all when the Church, who is the authority on the matter, does not. You never answered my question as to when the Church applied conditions that the author of hymns be in any certain spiritual state for a hymn to be sung. I am a traditionalist in that I believe in standing by all the Church's traditions, like obedience and faithfulness, not just the ones I like.

I understand those who believe we are wrong -- like pnewton. They have been indoctrinated by those who want to continue along the path that began in the years immediately following Vatican II. It does no good to argue with them.

Insults are unnecessary and has the addition of being untrue. I have reversed myself several times and do keep an open mind to reasonable arguements. Do you? You are so mistaken about what you call my indoctrination as to be laughable and foolish. My education is about as far from Vatican II indoctrination as possible.

[quote="Brownginger, post:1, topic:177507"]
I have been thinking about this for some time -- it should not be difficult! It is the Mass! There should be no ego and certainly no thought about entertaining or theater, or any ulterior motive at all. If Catholics don't want to praise the Father and offer Jesus to the Father and RECEIVE Jesus into their own hearts, souls, and bodies, getting them there "by any means" just seems immoral.

The Mass is perfect as sacrifice and what is done prior to and following the offering must be simple and beautiful. The prayers are written, presumably by experts finding precise words for the day's celebration. They can be sung or merely prayed. That should be enough participation by the congregation, other than actually making the sacrifice their own.

The sweat that goes into what extraneous songs to sing seems so unnecessary. Have Adoramus or some other publisher put together a few Catholic hymns for the times preceding and following all of the prayers written and intended for that Mass. Please don't have Martin Luther or Charles Wesley or other Protestant ministers or laity standing at the podium by proxy making all of our Masses ecumenical prayer services. Bring back Catholic musical tradition; but leave that to the time outside of the Mass itself.

Put the choir back where it belongs -- out of sight! The congregation should not have to watch the music director go through his/her gyrations and the choir shift and shuffle. We should be focused entirely on the altar and on what is going on there. Giving musicians center stage and making the songs during the Sacrifice what the people come for is just wrong!

I realize that in the years since Vatican II, *pastors have felt they must find an active liturgical role for as many of their people as possible and the emphasis has been on getting women involved in the liturgy*. We have seen the abuses thereby created. The fact of the matter is that the liturgy should consist of the priest-celebrant(s), the altarboys, and the lector (preferably male). All others who want to be Catholic and help with the Church should do so by praying, helping with the coffee and donuts, visiting the ill and the imprisoned, volunteering with the parish and school, studying the Bible and Church scholars, etc. There is plenty to be done and more; but just because the Mass is the most visible and most important part of being a Catholic does not make it fair game for everyone who has the desire to participate therein!

[/quote]

Absolutely! The blending of the clergy & laity has led to the loss of the "sense of the Sacred" more than anything else that has come out of Vatican II except the Novus Ordo Mass. IMO., the chief duty of the laity at Mass is INNER participation. The constant movement &** busyness** involved in the Novus Ordo Mass makes it very hard to meditate on the Sacrifice of the Mass. I'm speaking of the Catholic in the pew. I was asked three times to become a EEM at the parish I attended before Summorum Pontificum. I declined each time.

My main reason is that I don't believe it's beneficial to have a Sanctuary filled with the laity.

My second reason was that I found it hard enough to engage in contemplation or reflection while I knelt in the pew....one does wonder about the lectors, the readers, the EEM's? How do they concentrate their whole being on Christ, how do their spiritual eyes see His face when the Host is elevated if they are making their way to the "worship space", or the pulpit? How can one be preparing for the reception of Christ, HIMSELF, while shaking hands & "grinnin' at & visitin' with" their neighbors in the pew, waving to their friends across the aisle? Then comes the doxology, joined hands raised & bodies swaying.......this reminds me of the Holy Rollers of the past who fell to the floor "when the Spirit seized them".

We have lost the dignity of the Sacred & replaced it with a shallow 'service' that does NOT represent the whole of Catholicism. I thank God for giving us Pope Benedict, who knows what is gone.

THis is interesting - in my observation there are often a lot of non-priests around doing things in any very fancy, traditional service. They are usually better coordinated mind. But it is quite possible to justify a large number of altar servers if you fill all the positions, and have a visiting Bishop. Sanctuaries can get crowded.

But in my experience people serving at Mass do take a hit in the concentration department (even the priests.) Which is why it is a good thing to have enough of the required people that they are not required every week, and ideally they should have some maturity in their faith already. I can think of a few times when I was younger and a server and I had to concentrate on other things entirely (like the slowly tipping candle…)

I'll tell you a big stumbling block to the restoration of Catholic traditions, the fact that Catechists seem to be overwhelmingly Liberals and teach the Liberal view of Catholicism. Its kind of like how University professors are mostly Liberal, and as a result, students on campuses are overwhelmingly Liberals.

[quote="CradleCath, post:15, topic:177507"]
How do they concentrate their whole being on Christ, how do their spiritual eyes see His face when the Host is elevated if they are making their way to the "worship space", or the pulpit? How can one be preparing for the reception of Christ, HIMSELF, while shaking hands & "grinnin' at & visitin' with" their neighbors in the pew, waving to their friends across the aisle? Then comes the doxology, joined hands raised & bodies swaying.......this reminds me of the Holy Rollers of the past who fell to the floor "when the Spirit seized them".

[/quote]

If what you say is not exaggerated, then your experience may explain why you think some do not concentrate on Christ.

I note you have chosen not to serve a position during Mass so that you can concentrate more fully on what is happening. That is laudable. However, as one that serves at a lot of Masses, up to three on a weekend, I have found it very easy, maybe easier to concentrate while serving than when not. Here is how I do it. I have everything written out, in order and well-practiced. As I have a responsibility to be ready at certain times, my mind does not drift as much to mundane life outside of Mass.

As to the prayerful spirit that both prepares for reception of communion and reflects on receiving communion, I sing. There is not contradict in singing a prayer and saying a prayer, according to St. Augustine. Furthermore, when song takes the form of a corporate prayer, it is more appropriate to corporate worship than private reflection. I reserve the latter for before and after Mass.

I understand the attraction of silence and our priest has always incorporated this into the Mass. I respect those that would prefer a Mass without any music, or just chant. What I will never get is the need to belittle others who are different, especially those who only do what the do to serve their priest and their parish. As I said earlier, I am always open to reasonable discussion, but negative rhetoric does little to promote such discussion.

[quote="Bluegoat, post:16, topic:177507"]
THis is interesting - in my observation there are often a lot of non-priests around doing things in any very fancy, traditional service. They are usually better coordinated mind. But it is quite possible to justify a large number of altar servers** if you fill all the positions**

, and have a visiting Bishop. Sanctuaries can get crowded.

What do you mean re. "filling all of the positions". I've been a Catholic for 68 yrs. & the only "positions" that I know about are that of the altar boys???

At the Traditional Latin Mass I attend, we have the priest & 2-4 altar boys in the Sanctuary. The ONLY time I've seen it "crowded" is when our new priests celebrated their first Mass there & it was crowded with clergymen. One of our just-ordained men, celebrated the TLM as his first Mass.

My point is, there is a BIG difference between having the Sanctuary crowded with members of the laity & having it filled with priests & Seminarians. The priests, by virtue of the words of Christ, Himself, have a** right **to be in & near the "Holy of Holies"

"He saith unto them, But whom say aye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon aBar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not dprevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

The ordained priesthood has been dishonored as a result of the continuous elevation of the laity that we've seen since the Council. We have EXTRAordinay ministers of the Eucharists, we have dancers, lectors, altar girls & various other members of the laity parading around in front of the place where the Tabernacle once set. We have lost MANY good seminarians who couldn't take the disgracful behavior that took place within the walls of their seminaries. They left.

From 1966 to 1999, the total number of U.S. seminarians dropped from 39,638 to 4,826 **In 1966, there were approximately 600 seminaries and religious houses of formation in the U.S. that educated future priests. In 1967, 32 seminaries closed. By 1970, 74 more seminaries closed their doors. By 1996, only 192 seminaries remained (408 seminaries/houses of formation had closed since 1966**). (above info can be found in the 2000 Catholic Almanac.)

This is the year of the Priest, so declared by Pope Benedict. I HOPE that it is the year that the laity start extricating themselves from the Sanctuary, start finding other ways to build their self-image.....perhaps the food kitchen. That's where I work. This year there is a bigger need for people to serve the poor & homeless than ever before &, while their are LOTS of volunteers for the "UP-FRONT" ministries, it seems no one wants to dish up food for the "uniportant" people.....the drunks, the druggies, the single Mothers & their children, the elderly who can't afford much food..........who must spend their meager Social Security checks on medicine & doctor visits, etc., etc.

[/quote]

[quote="CradleCath, post:19, topic:177507"]
I HOPE that it is the year that the laity start extricating themselves from the Sanctuary, start finding other ways to build their self-image.....perhaps the food kitchen.

[/quote]

It is an insult to continually imply that those who serve in this or that capacity do so for the selfish reason of building their self-image. It is also an unsubstantiated generalization.

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