Split: Sola Fide; by faith alone

Byfaithalone…you should add to your signature

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10)

Also for your name and most likely for your belief

James 2:24: “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yes, we were created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, not because of them.

Also for your name and most likely for your belief

James 2:24: “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James is distinguinshing between true faith and those that pay lip service. Your works will never justify you before God. We are justified by faith alone. Our works are the result of our faith.

byfaithalone said: “Your works will never justify you before God. We are justified by faith alone.”

The apostle James said: “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I think I’ll stick with the apostolic teaching on this one.

Viva Cristo Rey!!

Catholic Deacon

So James is contradicting Paul regarding Abraham’s justification?

You do realize that Abraham was made righteous (justified) before Isaac was ever born?

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say?** “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”** 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

No disagreement there. You however falsely equate works in your signature to the good works that St. Paul asks us to live in through Christ.

Your making James say something he didn’t sorry. Your faith alone is traced back to Luther and not any closer to the Apostles. Here is an excerpt from CAF to help you better understand your fallible interpretation.

*"When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it “dead faith.” They treat “faith without works is dead” (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, “If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us.”

But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term “dead faith.” That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition. The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting “dead faith” wherever the text mentions faith.

On that reading, people would be boasting of having dead faith (vv. 14). James would be making the redundant statement that dead faith without works is dead (vv. 17, 26) and offering to prove that dead faith is barren (v. 20). He would be offering to show people hisdead faith by his works (v. 18) and commending people (“you do well”) for having dead faith (v. 19).

Finally, he would be telling us that Abraham’s dead faith was active with his works (v. 22) and that Abraham believed God with dead faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (v. 23).

He can speak of how Abraham’s intellectual assent was active with and completed by his works (v. 22) and can conclude that man is not justified by intellectual assent alone (v. 24). James views intellectual assent as good thing (“you do well,” v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26)."*

Grace overall is granted to us by God yes. Faith and works are both important and cannot be separated.

Works are works. There is no work that is not covered under the works of the law. Not one.

Your making James say something he didn’t sorry.

Actually I’m not. You have James and Paul contradicting each other.

Also contradicting other Scripture.

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Your faith alone is traced back to Luther and not any closer to the Apostles.

My faith is traced back to Christ.

Here is an excerpt from CAF to help you better understand your fallible interpretation.

"When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it “dead faith.” They treat “faith without works is dead” (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, “If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us.”

What does James say?
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?

James is speaking of someone that SAYS they have faith, which anyone can do.
THEN goes on to say "But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Can you show your faith without your works? No. THIS is the point James is making.

But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term “dead faith.” That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition. The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting “dead faith” wherever the text mentions faith.

I’ve never seen it as a definition.

James is differentiating between saving faith, that PRODUCES works, and those that simply give lip service, those that SAY they have faith.
Saving faith always produces works, hence the reason Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them.
The same reason James says “show me your faith without your work, and I’ll show you my faith BY my works”.

On that reading, people would be boasting of having dead faith (vv. 14). James would be making the redundant statement that dead faith without works is dead (vv. 17, 26) and offering to prove that dead faith is barren (v. 20). He would be offering to show people hisdead faith by his works (v. 18) and commending people (“you do well”) for having dead faith (v. 19).

Not quite right. James is offering to show his faith BY his works, asking others to show their faith without their works. The point being that you cannot show your faith unless it has works.

Finally, he would be telling us that Abraham’s dead faith was active with his works (v. 22) and that Abraham believed God with dead faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (v. 23).

Abraham didn’t have dead faith. Dead faith is no faith. God grants our faith. He does not grant dead faith.

He can speak of how Abraham’s intellectual assent was active with and completed by his works (v. 22) and can conclude that man is not justified by intellectual assent alone (v. 24). James views intellectual assent as good thing (“you do well,” v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26)."

Right, because intellectual assent is not saving faith. Saving faith changes a person. If there is no change, there is probably no faith. This is the jist of what James means.

Abraham was justified in God’s eyes before Issac was ever born. He wasn’t justified before God BECAUSE he was willing to offer his son. He was willing to offer his son because he was justified.

ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm

This is for you byfaithalone.

Blessings

Catholics don’t believe that we were created BECAUSE of good works. Where did you get that idea?

From that article

All who claim the title “Christian” will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8)

Actually Eph 2:8 says salvation is by grace through faith, not salvation is by grace alone. It makes much more sense to say salvation is by grace through faith alone, rather than say salvation is by grace alone.

and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.

So Catholics hold to 2 of the 5 Solas…interesting.

The Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation.

Right, the CC teaches you merit it.

If salvation is by grace ALONE as the article says, and grace is unmerited favor, and the CCC says:

*No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. *

So you are meriting unmerited favor.

and:

*We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. *

Obtain the joy of heaven for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

That, my friend, is earning salvation.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions.

They were separated by WHO they were, not what they did. Sheep are believers, goats are unbelievers. Sheep have works because faith produces works. The works of an unbeliever are as flithy rags.

Do you believe the works of Christians are judged in order to attain heaven?
IOW, do you believe no one goes to heaven unless and until their works are judged?
If so, when does this take place? Is everyone’s works judged at one time or does it happen immediately after death?

Paul and James don’t contradict each other.

Does “apart from” mean “instead of” in any English dictionary?

Look, this confusion arises because Protestants think that when we say “faith and works,” we are saying our works have merit apart from Christ. They don’t and we know that. But once we are justified through Christ, it is a different ball game. Just ask Paul, same letter by the way:

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 2:2-8[/BIBLEDRB]

I know they don’t.

Does “apart from” mean “instead of” in any English dictionary?

Did I say it did? I think not.

Look, this confusion arises because Protestants think that when we say “faith and works,” we are saying our works have merit apart from Christ. They don’t and we know that. But once we are justified through Christ, it is a different ball game. Just ask Paul, same letter by the way:

Your works do not ever merit anything, period. They evidence our faith.

But salvation “by grace through faith alone” is not biblical. So we don’t say it.

So Catholics hold to 2 of the 5 Solas…interesting.

No, only one and that is sola gratia. We don’t hold to Solus Christus as you define it because you say Christ has no Body.

It isn’t us.

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 1:6[/BIBLEDRB]

and:

We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

Obtain the joy of heaven for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

That, my friend, is earning salvation.

Here are the footnotes you conveniently omitted:
92 Cf. Rom 8:28-30; Mt 7:21.
93 Mt 10:22; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1541.
94 1 Tim 2:4.
95 St. Teresa of Avila, Excl. 15:3.
96 Cf. Jn 13:34.

The majority of those are straight from the Bible.

Do you believe the works of Christians are judged in order to attain heaven?
IOW, do you believe no one goes to heaven unless and until their works are judged?
If so, when does this take place? Is everyone’s works judged at one time or does it happen immediately after death?

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 9:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 5:10[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 11:15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Pet 1:17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:12-13 [/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Col 3:24-25[/BIBLEDRB]

It needs to mean that for your grand Paul v. James conspiracy to work. Otherwise you are reading into Scripture according to your traditions of men something that is not there.

Again, they are not our works. Our works are joined to God through Christ by the Holy Spirit. They are God’s works and that is why they have merit.

Sure it is. Scripture clear as day says 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Can’t get much clearer than that. But here’s another:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

No, only one and that is sola gratia.

Yet the article that was posted for me to read says otherwise. Is the article wrong? It says salvation is by grace alone. It also says salvation is through Christ alone. Those are 2 of the 5 Solas.

We don’t hold to Solus Christus as you define it because you say Christ has no Body.

I have never once said Christ has no body.

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 1 Cor.

It isn’t us.

Your own CCC says you merit FOR YOURSELF. Indeed it is you.

Here are the footnotes you conveniently omitted:
93 Mt 10:22; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1541.
94 1 Tim 2:4.
95 St. Teresa of Avila, Excl. 15:3.
96 Cf. Jn 13:34.

The majority of those are straight from the Bible.

That doesn’t negate the fact that your church teaches that you “obtain the joy of heaven for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

Obtaining heaven for good works is not Scripural. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Quite clear.

Nope, I only see what is there.

Again, they are not our works.

Yes, they are. Why would you get rewarded for a work that is not yours?

Our works are joined to God through Christ by the Holy Spirit. They are God’s works and that is why they have merit.

God does not need merit for HIS own works. That is absurd.

Those verses refer to initial justification, which is through faith and baptism.

Now what happens if the Christian refuses to do good works? What if the Christian lies, cheats and steals and never repents?

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

No.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]

Two ways of saying the same thing.

Your own CCC says you merit FOR YOURSELF. Indeed it is you.
That doesn’t negate the fact that your church teaches that you “obtain the joy of heaven for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

What part of “through the Holy Spirit” and “with the grace of Christ” don’t you understand?

Obtaining heaven for good works is not Scripural. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. Quite clear.

But if you want to keep it, you’d better act like a Christian. Scripture makes it clear that a dead faith doesn’t save.

Because He created us to do good works!

[BIBLEDRB]Ephesians 2:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Except for your own opinions about what you *think *Catholics believe, a lot of what you are saying is correct, in regards to not earning/meriting salvation thru works. I feel like you are not hearing those who have tried to spell out for you that we believe in the combination of faith and works, not faith alone, and not works alone. Now, of course, it is for God to judge, not us. If He thinks that one who has just recently turned faithful and didn’t have time to do any works before death should be saved, then they will be. Likewise, if one with a good heart has done good works but died ignorant of the faith and God approves him, he may be saved to. Who among us knows exactly what God may do? I think the Bible says that all the nations will be gathered before Him at the judgement. We know that many of those to be thrown into the pit will be believers. Those believers will cry out, “Lord! Lord!” The Lord will say, “I know you not.”

Besides, was Paul not a faithful believer? He said that he was working out his salvation with fear and trembling, lest he fail to win the prize. Too bad there weren’t any Protestants around to tell him he was wrong, I guess. Maybe that would have saved him a lot of sleepless nights to know that he was already saved just by professing his belief in Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour.

There is only one justification, and it is by faith.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be** justified by faith** in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Now what happens if the Christian refuses to do good works?

They don’t. That is the nature of being born again, we are new creations in Christ.

Do you have a laundry list of the good works you are to do? I would think not. EVERY kind act, word, deed, is a good work. Do you have to think about doing good works, or does it come naturally?

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and **they follow Me. **

His sheep follow Him, that includes obeying Him.

What if the Christian lies, cheats and steals and never repents?

All Christians are repentant. Unless you repent you will never be born from above.

Two ways of saying the same thing.

No, they are quite different. It says grace alone and Christ alone. As I said, 2 of the 5 Solas. You can deny it if you wish, but the doesn’t change the fact of the matter.

What part of “through the Holy Spirit” and “with the grace of Christ” don’t you understand?

What part of obtaining the joy of heaven FOR good works do you not understand?

The article says salvation is by grace alone. Either it is grace ALONE or you have to add works to grace.

But if you want to keep it, you’d better act like a Christian.

I am kept by the power of God, not by any work I do.

Scripture makes it clear that a dead faith doesn’t save.

There is no such thing as dead faith.

We can lose justification if we persist in sin and Scripture is crystal clear on that.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:22[/BIBLEDRB]

I just told you “apart from” doesn’t mean instead of and without this, it does not say “faith alone.”

It doesn’t say by faith alone.

“Works of the Law” refers to the Old Testament law. Nor does it say that faith alone justifies–just that works alone don’t justify and we know that. Thank you very much.

Again, it doesn’t say salvation is by faith alone. The only place that the Bible uses the term “faith alone” it is immediately preceded by the words “not by.”

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

They don’t. That is the nature of being born again, we are new creations in Christ.

Yes, and as a result we can do good works through Him. I’m glad you realize this.

Do you have a laundry list of the good works you are to do? I would think not. EVERY kind act, word, deed, is a good work. Do you have to think about doing good works, or does it come naturally?

It comes naturally and I credit that to Christ at work in me. I am, however, still a work in progress.

No, they are quite different. It says grace alone and Christ alone. As I said, 2 of the 5 Solas. You can deny it if you wish, but the doesn’t change the fact of the matter.

They aren’t the same thing. Inherent in [Solus Christus](“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solus Christus”) is a denial of Christ’s presence on Earth through the sacramental ministry and thus His promise to stay with us till the end of the age, a denial of the sanctity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints, and a denial of the episcopate and papacy.

The article says salvation is by grace alone. Either it is grace ALONE or you have to add works to grace.

Neither. Grace fuels works and makes them meritorious.

There is no such thing as dead faith.

:eek:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]James 2:26[/BIBLEDRB]

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