SPLIT: St. Clement, the 4th pope of Rome, probably was ordained by St. Peter


#1

That is debatable.


#2

Great! Another thread perhaps. But one question - St. Clement was ordained by St. Peter? Or St. Peter was never in Rome?


#3

St Clement being ordained by St Peter would be a good thread. St Peter being the first bishop of Rome would also provide a nice debate.

I think most Christians believe he was martyred in Rome.


#4

Don’t we have the testimony of numerous Church Father that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome?


#5

I thought Linus was the first bishop of Rome.


#6

This is not what the Patriarch of Constantinople thought:

When I began to appeal to the throne of the Apostolic See of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod, which is obedient to Your Holiness, at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred my way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar. …Therefore, I beseech Your Holiness not to permit these things to be treated with indifference…but to rise up first on behalf of the cause of our orthodox Faith, now destroyed by unlawful acts. …Further to issue an authoritative instruction…so that a like faith may everywhere be preached by the assembly of an united synod of fathers, both Eastern and Western. Thus the laws of the fathers may prevail and all that has been done amiss be rendered null and void. Bring healing to this ghastly wound. – Patriarch Flavian of Constantinople to Pope Leo, 449

And I referred earlier to the council of Chalcedon (on another thread that you and I are participating. After Pope Leo’s words were read, what does the entire council (east and west alike) say:

This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the Apostles! So we all believe! thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo! . . . This is the true faith!’” (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 451]).

So in answer, Linus succeeded Peter.


#7

With regard to St Peter’s Roman episcopate, it was not yet known in the year 180. St Irenaeus published a work where he ascribes the establishement of the Roman Church to St Peter and St Paul.

He says: “the blessed apostles having founded and built the Church, committed the episcopal office to Linus. Of this Linus St. Paul makes mention in his Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus. . . after him Clement succeeded in the third place from the apostles.”

Does this not seem like Linus is the first bishop of Rome–appointed by St Peter and St Paul?

This is the earliest account that we have. :hmmm:


#8

It sounds to me like Peter and Paul were the first bishops in Rome; they would have to be since they “founded and built the church” there. And it sounds a though Linus was then ordained bishop and appointed to the succession.


#9

Hmmmm, “episcopal office”. Isn’t that what Peter said of Judas in Acts 1? “Let another take his Episcopate”.

It seems that Peter held the Episcopate, followed by Linus.

This seems to be echoed by the good Patriarch of Constaninople.


#10

We know they were Apostles. But was Peter the first bishop of Rome? That is the question.


#11

If Clement was number three. And Acicletus and Linus preceded him–that means that Peter was not number one–Linus was. :wink:


#12

But that seems to be what the Early Church taught.


#13

Of course Peter was the first Bishop of Rome.


#14

Not the earliest accounts (Irenaeus).

I am wondering-- what is the earliest account that claims St Peter was the first bishop of Rome?


#15

What is your source?


#16

The Apostles were the first bishops. So, when they founded a church in a city, it was in their episcopal capacity that they did so. Linus could not have been ordained as successor without a preceding bishop to ordain him–and that would be Peter who along with Paul founded the see of Rome.


#17

Not necessarily.


#18

Jesus is my source. What is your source that he was not? The burden of proof is on you not on us who say Peter is the first Bishop of Rome which means Peter is our first Pope. I guess you don’t believe that Peter is our first Pope?

I know you’re not going to be satisfied with Jesus as my source but since Jesus gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom that makes Peter our first Pope. Peter is Head of the visible Church here on Earth. And yes, I know Jesus is the Head of the Church. Jesus is thee Rock of the Church. But Jesus appointed Peter as Rock on which He built His Church here on earth.


#19

You don’t believe that the apostles were bishops? How then did they have the power to ordain?


#20

Not necessarily.
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:rolleyes: We’re just going to run around in circles in this thread. So buh-bye. Well, maybe not “buh-bye” as I might be back :wink: who knows. :stuck_out_tongue:


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