The Catholics were started by constantine. The baptist were the original church. They went underground because they were murdered by the catholics.
SPLIT: The Catholics were started by Constantine. The baptist were the original church. They went underground because they were murdered by the Catholics
No history books say these things. Please share the sources of your information.
I hope I am not derailing this thread.
We were discussing this in my Bible study this week. When I told my fellows that there were people who believed the statement above, they couldn’t believe it. They thought I was joking (sorry).
If this is your true belief, can you explain where they have been all this time and how they are now restored?
I should have added above, that this nonsense about “Catholics killing Baptists” belongs in another thread. This thread is about “How to Get to Heaven.” Apparently Frodobaggins would rather discuss something else, so he has changed the subject.
Pops some popcorn and kicks back with a cold Coke to see how this one is proved.
No, I haven’t gone senile … this post made more sense before the thread was split.
Okay, frodobaggins, now you’ve got a thread to devote to sharing your information with us about these claims. Please share your sources so that we can read them too. Thanks.
Sounds like more garbage from that book about the
non-existent “Trail of Blood.”
Constantine started the Catholic church?
As a JW, I believed something very similar to that.
Now that I know better, I am ashamed and embarrassed
to admit that I ever believed such fictitious nonsense.
And I do mean FICTITIOUS nonsense, for that’s what it is.
Read St. Ignatius’s letters written around 105 A.D.
or Justin Martyr’s writings written 200 years before Constantine.
Seriously, fiction is a very poor evangelization tool, unless
you only want to convert the Intellectually Gullible.
Seriously, is this a belief usually held by Baptists? I thought it was a fringe supposition and not one held by a mainline denomination.
Nope, historically inaccurate statement you made, frodo, and a big mistake for making such comment.
The Catholic Church started when Jesus was crucified on the cross when the Roman Soldier pierced a lance on his side.
This is also verified in the Catechism:
766 The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the ‘wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’” As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.
1076 The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the “dispensation of the mystery” the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, “until he comes.” In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls “the sacramental economy”; this is the communication (or “dispensation”) of the fruits of Christ’s Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church’s “sacramental” liturgy.
It is therefore important first to explain this “sacramental dispensation” (chapter one). The nature and essential features of liturgical celebration will then appear more clearly (chapter two).
Second, St. Ignatius of Antioch said in 107-110 AD the following:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Ignatius letter first recorded the word Catholic. It was already know that the Church established by Jesus Christ upon Peter, was a universal Church because Jesus preach his Gospel to be spread throughout the ends of the earth.
I gather the fact that there remains no documentation of this is considered sufficient to prove the thoroughness of the Church in supressing the Baptists for the many years. :rolleyes:
The belief that the baptists were the original church is pure fiction and not supported by facts.
Nah… even most mainline Baptists don’t buy into it and in fact condemn it as unfounded.
However, as with all debate, the burden of proof falls to the one making the allegation/assertion, so it is best to let this sit until xFBx can get in here and show us where this comes from.
It’s not biblical, so the proofs have to be from the sources he got them from I guess.
Just keep the popcorn and soft drinks stocked until we see where this comes from.
If this can be proved as irrefutable fact I will leave the Catholic Church.
:yawn: Ho-Hum…Not again.:rolleyes:
Here’s everything you need to know:
No, this is NOT a belief held by most Baptists. Even many fundamentalist Baptists (a number of whom I:p share DNA with) would admit that this is nonsense. Mind you, they would argue with you all, about the early Church being Catholic, but they wouldn’t take it to this extreme.
I’m sorry, but:D I can’t help myself: It is always a good idea for murdered people (& the dead in general) to go underground…:whistle: :whistle: (I now return you to Your Regularly Scheduled Thread).
Hey, your first thread in more than a month of only posting on How To Get To Heaven
And you don’t show up again on this thread!
Have you got any evidence for your ideas on Church history?
Note the word “SPLIT:” in the thread title. So far I doubt that XfrodoBagginsx is even aware of the fact that (because this is off topic on his other thread) this series of posts has been “split” off to allow him to prove his case without derailing the other thread.
Please maintain the very soul of charity regardless of the thread.
Right, that’s exactly how it works. The lack of evidence in the historical record, far from being an obstacle to the claim, is considered proof of the claim!
Which means, of course, that one can find absolutely any reality in the (lack of) historical record. Which means that reality no longer has any meaning.
For example, in the lack of historical record I have found that the Baptists invented Islam to battle the Catholic Church. Isn’t that amazing?!
Since frodobaggins has previously argued that baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, why then would the original Church have called itself the Baptist church? Hmmm. Almost defies logic.
Actually, folks, I was raised in the Conference Baptist denomination, and we were taught a variant of frodobaggins history.
The Conference Baptists are considered a very evangelical Baptist denomination. Several great teachers and writers have come out of this denomination (in fact, out of my CHURCH, the one I grew up in!): Evelyn Christenson, Gary Smalley, John Ortberg, Steve Douglass (current president of Campus Crusade for Christ). The official college of the denomination is Bethel College in Minnesota.
We were not taught that the original church was specifically “baptist,” but that it was just “Christian.”
And we were taught that many of the true Christians were persecuted and murdered by the “false organization of man” that took over the true Church and for the next 1500 years (until Martin Luther) used the Church as a political stronghold to gain power.
But during all those years, the “true Christians” were still around (a “remnant”) in hiding, and managed to smuggle the Bible into their underground organization and read it covertly to make sure that “true” Christianity continued. Also, a lot of our early church fathers were “true” Christians that taught the truth and opposed the “false” church.
When Martin Luther appeared, he brought back the “true” church and exposed the false church for what it was–evil.
Now before you get all mad at the Conference Baptists, they also taught that Catholicism is not “evil” or “non-Christian.” We were taught that–praise God!–Vatican II restored the Catholic Church to a “true” church, and that the Catholic Church really is a Christian church, but they have retained a lot of the rituals that the “false” church added during the 1500-year reign of evil. We were taught that the Catholic Church will gradually throw away these unnecessary rituals. But in the meantime, there is nothing evil about them, they’re just “unnecessary.”
My husband grew up in the Assemblies of God, a large megachurch (around 5000 people, which back in the 1970s was considered a megachurch. Now it’s tiny compared to today’s megachurches!). He was basically taught the same version of history about Catholicism that I was taught, only they weren’t quite so charitable to the Catholics–they taught that the Catholic Church is still false.
So this teaching is not a fringe, whacko belief. I’m not sure if there are textbooks that support this, and I’m not sure if it is still taught in these denominations. But it was being taught back in the 1970s, and a lot of people my age (50s) and older still believe it. Trying to talk them out of it is extremely difficult–they trust their pastors and teachers in their denomination, AND–how many people really enjoy sitting down with a great big ol’ history book and plowing through the tiny print to learn the “truth.” Besides, as everyone (at least conservative Protestants!) knows nowadays, history is always biased depending on who wrote it. History books can’t be trusted.
So it’s a tough sell to get a Protestant to actually read history. In our case, our trust in our evangelical Protestant preachers and teachers was utterly destroyed when we were kicked out of our Protestant church. We realized that since they had fed us a line of false goods on one issue (the sole authority of the Bible), that perhaps there were other lies we had been fed through the years. So we started reading and studying like crazy to discover the “truth.”
I honestly think that it’s this kind of thing that will make Protestants wake up and smell the coffee. As tragic as incidents like the Colorado homosexual scandal were for the pastors and churches involved, I’ll bet it probably jarred a lot of Protestants out of innocent acceptance, and got them searching for real truth, not just the smooth talk that they have been swallowing all these years. As the AA people say, often you have to reach rock bottom before you will start climbing out.
If you are looking for evidence of this theory, then you can forget it, because the evil Catholic church destroyed all evidence of the true hidden percuscted Christians, and replaced them with their own tainted writings, and then they made up false accuations of the true bible believing Christians saying that they were heretics.
But even without evidence to support our claim, we know this to be true, becuase the true early Christians were bible believing baptists.
Look, the logic is simple.
The Baptist are right and the Catholics are wrong.
The early Christians therefore must have thought like the Baptists.
The catholic church held to traditions and and scripture, while the so-called “heretics”, which were actually the true christians held to the bible alone for their teachings.
The Catholic Church must have destroyed all the true Baptist Christian writings, since they can’t be found.
Remember, the winner writes the history books.