SPLIT: "The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today."


#1

your Catechism teaches today. What a horrible claim.Okay… let’s just examine this claim of yours atemi.

The Didache

The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.

Chapter 1. The Two Ways and the First Commandment. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, but a great difference between the two ways. The way of life, then, is this: First, you shall love God who made you; second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you. And of these sayings the teaching is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the Gentiles do the same? But love those who hate you, and you shall not have an enemy. Abstain from fleshly and worldly lusts. If someone strikes your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and you shall be perfect. If someone impresses you for one mile, go with him two. If someone takes your cloak, give him also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, ask it not back, for indeed you are not able. Give to every one who asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he who gives according to the commandment, for he is guiltless. Woe to him who receives; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless;** but he who receives not having need shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what. And coming into confinement, he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape from there until he pays back the last penny.** And also concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give. Most of the early part of this chapter is a given & in fact parallels the catechism.

A clear reference to Purgatory.

The need for giving alms is still a teaching of the Catholic Church.

So far it’s a clean sweep, which means that you are already proved wrong…but we’ll go on anyway.


#2

[size=]Chapter 2.

[/size] The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.Wow! Sounds almost identical to the catechism on the commandments, so again atemi is proved dead wrong.

Abortion is a mortal sin. Same as the catechism teaches today.

Notice also here the discourse is about what we term today as “Mortal Sin”. Still wanna claim “The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today.”? I sure wouldn’t.

Chapter 3. Other Sins Forbidden. My child, flee from every evil thing, and from every likeness of it. Be not prone to anger, for anger leads to murder. Be neither jealous, nor quarrelsome, nor of hot temper, for out of all these murders are engendered. My child, be not a lustful one. for lust leads to fornication. Be neither a filthy talker, nor of lofty eye, for out of all these adulteries are engendered. My child, be not an observer of omens, since it leads to idolatry. Be neither an enchanter, nor an astrologer, nor a purifier, nor be willing to took at these things, for out of all these idolatry is engendered. My child, be not a liar, since a lie leads to theft. Be neither money-loving, nor vainglorious, for out of all these thefts are engendered. My child, be not a murmurer, since it leads the way to blasphemy. Be neither self-willed nor evil-minded, for out of all these blasphemies are engendered.

Rather, be meek, since the meek shall inherit the earth. Be long-suffering and pitiful and guileless and gentle and good and always trembling at the words which you have heard. You shall not exalt yourself, nor give over-confidence to your soul. Your soul shall not be joined with lofty ones, but with just and lowly ones shall it have its intercourse. Accept whatever happens to you as good, knowing that apart from God nothing comes to pass.

The Cardinal and Theological Virtues…just as they are found in CCC 1805 & 1810 today.

Gee atemi, did ya think we were stupid enough to take your assertion as fact?!!:knight2:


#3

[size=]Chapter 4. Various Precepts. My child, remember night and day him who speaks the word of God to you, and honor him as you do the Lord. For wherever the lordly rule is uttered, there is the Lord. And seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.** Do not long for division, but rather bring those who contend to peace.**

[/size] Judge righteously, and do not respect persons in reproving for transgressions. You shall not be undecided whether or not it shall be. Be not a stretcher forth of the hands to receive and a drawer of them back to give. If you have anything, through your hands you shall give ransom for your sins. Do not hesitate to give, nor complain when you give; for you shall know who is the good repayer of the hire. Do not turn away from him who is in want; rather, share all things with your brother, and do not say that they are your own. For if you are partakers in that which is immortal, how much more in things which are mortal? Do not remove your hand from your son or daughter; rather, teach them the fear of God from their youth. Do not enjoin anything in your bitterness upon your bondman or maidservant, who hope in the same God, lest ever they shall fear not God who is over both; for he comes not to call according to the outward appearance, but to them whom the Spirit has prepared. And you bondmen shall be subject to your masters as to a type of God, in modesty and fear. You shall hate all hypocrisy and everything which is not pleasing to the Lord. Do not in any way forsake the commandments of the Lord; but keep what you have received, neither adding thereto nor taking away therefrom. **In the church you shall acknowledge your transgressions, and you shall not come near for your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.**That red part is one that Atemi hasn’t learned yet I guess…or have you ever read this for yourself? It doesn’t appear that you have or I wouldn’t be proving you dead wrong in every chapter so far. Remember what you said? Here, lemme refresh your memory a little Atemi. “The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today.”

Chapter 5. The Way of Death. And the way of death is this: First of all it is evil and accursed: murders, adultery, lust, fornication, thefts, idolatries, magic arts, witchcrafts, rape, false witness, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness; persecutors of the good, hating truth, loving a lie, not knowing a reward for righteousness, not cleaving to good nor to righteous judgment, watching not for that which is good, but for that which is evil; from whom meekness and endurance are far, loving vanities, pursuing revenge, not pitying a poor man, not laboring for the afflicted, not knowing Him Who made them, murderers of children, destroyers of the handiwork of God, turning away from him who is in want, afflicting him who is distressed, advocates of the rich, lawless judges of the poor, utter sinners. Be delivered, children, from all these.

This is one of the best so far and anyone who can’t locate most all of this in the current CCC please just PM me and I’ll show you how to use the searchable CCC.


#4

[size=]Chapter 6. Against False Teachers, and Food Offered to Idols. See that no one causes you to err from this way of the Teaching, since apart from God it teaches you. For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able to do this, do what you are able. And concerning food, bear what you are able; but against that which is sacrificed to idols be exceedingly careful; for it is the service of dead gods.

Idolatry…

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. **And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. **

But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.Well here’s another one that teaches something that aligns with Catholic teaching.

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord’s Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. **Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). **

Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
**
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil);** for Thine is the power and the glory for ever…

Pray this three times each day.Well there goes the repetitious prayer allegation out the tube, (again).

Fasting on Friday…:eek:

The Our Father.

And the only place that the doxology that we use after the Our Father at Mass is recorded. (It’s not in any of the earliest and best original Greek manuscripts BTW. Copiest error in the KJV?)

Chapter 9. The Eucharist

. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

And concerning the broken bread:

We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

**But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.” **
Eucharistic doctrine, just like Catholics today.

Anyone see any signs of “open communion” here? Next time some n-C gets weird with you about not being allowed to take the Eucharist at Mass, just point out that we do it the same as the early church. (Open communion therefore would indeed qualify as “a new wind of doctrine” & “a teaching of men”. 1st Corinthians 11:23-30)[/size]


#5

[size=]Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way:

We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy name's sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. **Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it;**

for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire. Look there at the way the Eucharistic prayers parallel this bolded portion.

All of this is found in modern Catholic liturgy and belief.

Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not.

But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there’s a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.:hmmm: This appears more period specific than anything, though it certainly is good counsel for us all today.

This may not have much comparison to the modern catechism, but the allegation is** “The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today.”** and so I don’t have to find a match in every detail. I have already proven that Atemi is dead wrong in his assertion.[/size]


#6

[size=]Chapter 12. Reception of Christians. But receive everyone who comes in the name of the Lord, and prove and know him afterward; for you shall have understanding right and left.

If he who comes is a wayfarer, assist him as far as you are able; but he shall not remain with you more than two or three days, if need be. But if he wants to stay with you, and is an artisan, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, according to your understanding, see to it that, as a Christian, he shall not live with you idle. But if he wills not to do, he is a Christ-monger. Watch that you keep away from such.I guess that bolded part is in line with the modern catechism when it teaches us to receive those who are believers and yet not Catholic and to discern them.

Chapter 13. Support of Prophets. But every true prophet who wants to live among you is worthy of his support. So also a true teacher is himself worthy, as the workman, of his support. Every first-fruit, therefore, of the products of wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and of sheep, you shall take and give to the prophets, for they are your high priests.

But if you have no prophet, give it to the poor. If you make a batch of dough, take the first-fruit and give according to the commandment. So also when you open a jar of wine or of oil, take the first-fruit and give it to the prophets; and of money (silver) and clothing and every possession, take the first-fruit, as it may seem good to you, and give according to the commandment.:thumbsup:

**Chapter 14. **Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. ****

For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."Looks like they went to Mass every Sunday, confessed their sins in a sacramental confession, and considered the Eucharist a sacrifice.

These all have parallels in the catechism today, right?

Chapter 15. Bishops and Deacons; Christian Reproof. Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord.

Looks like the need for good works is preached the same as in the catechism today.[/size]


#7

[size=]Chapter 16. Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord. Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time.

For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead – yet not of all, but as it is said: “The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.” Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.Uh oh…looks like the teaching here is that one can lose one’s salvation by not persevering to the end. That’s always been Catholic teaching.

Same as in the catechism… yet do you see any of that "Rapture " teaching in this? I sure don’t.

So…in recap.

Does Atemi’s assertion that “The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today.” hold any water? No. It is pure rhetoric and wishful thinking on his part with no basis in fact as just a simple reading by anyone with an eyeball and some functional brain cells can see. (Of which I am, no doubt, chief. :rotfl: )
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.[/size]


#8

Ever thought to stay on topic, Michael?

I would love to respond, but since the Didache is not the topic of this thread, that is definitely a no go. But you know this already.


#9

Why doesn’t it relate to the topic? We are talking about doctrinal unity, correct? Or are we mistaken? Give us a clue.


#10

Doctrinal unity among modernist Roman Catholics today, yes.

The teachings of the Didache and any of the other myriad of early writings, no.


The RCC facade
#11

Split to allow the discussion to continue.
MF


#12

Actually it’s even better than that - fasting on the FOURTH day AND the Day of Preparation means … drumroll … fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays! Exactly what many a devout Catholic still does today.

Positively spooky how little some things have changed.


#13

Ah! Atemi, **has ** decided that this is a no go.!::hmmm:


#14

What is indisputable is how little the Early Church of the Didache resembles most Protestant communities’ worship services and practices today.

When it comes to the debate over the Early Church, only the Orthodox and the Catholic have a leg to stand on.


#15

:thumbsup: Thanks for catching that LilyM! It was kinda late and I guess my mind let that get by me.
God bless you!


#16

With all due respect, Atemi, that is a cop out. You were asserting that there is division and lack of unity in the Church. I said that the unity is found among those who espouse the teachings of the Church. You made as if the Catechism was a "new " invention, and I pointed out that the teaching has not changed since the first century, and gave the Didache as an example.

There is no disunity in the Catholic Church. Those who do not espouse the whole teaching of the Church, from the Didache to the modern CCC are NOT CATHOLIC! Period.


The RCC facade
#17

So in The World According to Atemi, the Catholic Church, with 1 billion Catholics all recognizing the Supreme Pontiff Pope Benedict XVI, with its doctrine and teachings contained within the covers of one book (The Catechism of the Catholic Church), and with its Tradition which enables any Catholic to attend the services of any Catholic Church anywhere in the world and follow the Mass even if they don’t speak the language of it, is NOT unified, while the Invisible Church, whose members are unknown to us and will be until Judgment Day, which subsists in vastly different faith communities many of which have no stated much less written doctrine, which recognizes differing or no earthly authorities at all, IS unified.

You’ll have an easier time parsing the sentence above than untangling Atemi’s argument, which serves no purpose other than to confirm why the “every man his own Pope” argument of Protestantism is not only silly but heresy.


#18

And as St. Augustine writes: “So a Christian is a Catholic as long as he lives in the body: cut off from it he becomes a heretic - the life of the spirit follows not the amputated member.” And again he writes: “This is the Holy Church, the Catholic Church - the true Church, which contending against all heresies may herself be assailed, but cannot be overcome.”


#19

A beautifully apt quote, and an example of why I am so glad I chose the great man of Hippo as my patron saint.


#20

Exactly! And his assertion was that “The Didache teaches almost nothing your Catechism teaches today.”, to which I responded by showing, as I have done that he offered a rhetorical and false statement.

However, I would not have phrased my thinking like that.

They may be Catholic (in name…perhaps in the same sense that n-Cs will use the term “Christian”.), but they are not in authority, qualified to offer their dissent or opposition, nor are they found to be faithfully practicing the Catholic faith. Their rhetoric and/or practices no more reflect faithful Catholicism than any “backslider” does the faith of their respective n-C communities.

An interesting point, but perhaps more pertinent to the other thread on unity since this one really is only about the comparison of the Didache to the teachings of the Catechism and modern Catholic practice.


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