St.Thomas Christians of Kerala

In the year AD 52, St.Thomas the apostle of Jesus Christ, in order to fulfill his missionary purpose evangelized many parts of India. His works greatly laid an impact especially on the southwestern state of Kerala. As his legacy a small Christian community had formed and the local peoples begun to call them Nasranis or followers of Jesus of Nazareth. For centuries after the apostles death, the Christian community prospered and made a connection with Church of East (from whom which they received their bishops).

Later in the year AD 345, in order to strengthen the the St.Thomas Christians a group of Early Christians migrated from Asia Minor. This group composed of 72 Early Christian families, a bishop of the Church of the East known as Urha Mar Yoseph, many priests, deacons, and their leader Knai Thomas or Thomas of Cana who was an enterprising merchant who often did trade between Kerala and Asia Minor. On reaching Kerala, Knai Thoma and his people were accepted graciously by the local king and were granted privileges and land to settle. They soon erected three churches, one in the name of our Lady Mariam, one in the name of Mar Thoma Sleeha, and one in the name of Blessed St. Kuriakose.

For centuries the St.Thomas Christians and the Knanayas (though there was some strife between the groups) lived in a common peace with each other. The Christian community had prospered and was living in harmony under the Church of the East. After the year 1499 things began to change as the Portuguese took control of Kerala. The Portuguese were at first astounded to have found Christians in India but after taking a further look at these Christians, thought their Church of the East teachings to be heresy. They soon hosted a synod with the Christian community in which they took control of the St.Thomas Christian and Knanaya Churches and transferred them all under the Catholic diocese they erected in India. The Portuguese had known of the St.Thomas Christian connection with the Church of the East and made sure the Eastern bishops could not reach the community.

After years of being under the Catholic Church, in 1653 a portion of the St.Thomas Christians had revolted against the Portuguese and proclaimed they would no longer accept the Pope of Rome. The Christians who revolted were eventually brought under the Syriac Orthodox Church and begun to receive bishops. This caused a rift in the community, creating two groups Syrian Catholics and Syrian Orthodox. Out of the 116 churches owned by the Christian community, the Syrian Catholics claimed 84 and the Syrian Orthodox 32.

The two groups continued this way until 1889, when because of the influence of Anglicanism some Syrian Orthodox broke off from their mother church and claimed independence. This divided group begun to call their independent church the “Mar Thoma Syrian Church”. Later there was a division in the Mar Thoma Syrian Church and a new independent church formed known as the St.Thomas Evangelical Church.

In 1887 the Syrian Catholics for the first time got there own diocese’ and from then on were known as Syro Malabar Catholics. The Syro Malabar hierarchy was restored in 1923 and Mar Augustine Kandathil was installed as the first Metropolitan and head of the church. In 1911 Kottayam Diocese was erected for just the Knanaya Catholics, Mar Mathew Makil was the first Metropolitan and Head of the Knanaya Catholic Church.

The Syrian Orthodox were once again divided in the year 1930, when a section of the church under the leadership of Mar Ivanos and Mar Theophilus regained communion with the Catholic Church. This faction became known as the Syro Malankara Catholic Sui Juris. In Kerala they are nick named “reethakar” which is just a disambiguation for Catholics of a different rite aka “reeth” :p.

The Syrian Orthodox had one more division in the years 1912-1975 over the supremacy of the Patriarch of Antioch. Two factions arose, one known as the Patriarchs Party and the other known as the Bishops Party. One party supported being under the Patriarch of Antioch and the other wanted an independent Indian Orthodox Church. In 1975 the factions officially split and those who remained under the patriarch were known as Jacobite Syrian Christian and those who fought for an independent church became known as Malankara Indian Orthodox. In 1910 Chingavanam Diocese was erected just for the Knanaya Jacobites, Mor Severios Geevarghese was its first Metropolitan and Head of the Knanaya Jacobite Church.

Throughout the centuries the St.Thomas Christians had many splits and many new churches formed but to regain a sense of unity an ecumenical council was created for all the St.Thomas Churches. I’ll share a few pictures at the end of the post of the different churches and their leaders.

Current Divisions-

  1. Syro Malabar Catholic Church - Major Archbishop, Mar George Alencherry
    -Knanaya Catholic - Metropolitan Archbishop, Mar Mathew Moolakattu
  2. Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church - Catholicos, Aboon Mor Baselios Thomas I
    -Knanaya Jacobite - Metropolitan Archbishop, Kuriakose Mor Severios
  3. Malankara Orthodox Church - Catholicos, Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose II
  4. Marthoma Syrian Church - Metropolitan, Joseph Mar Thoma
  5. St.Thomas Evangelical Church - Representative Body
  6. Syro Malankara Catholic Church. - Major Archbishop, Moran Mor Baselios Cleemis

I thought I’d share some information :slight_smile:
Thomas48

Photos from the St.Thomas Christian Inter-Church Meeting which included many church leaders and bishops.

This is great to read your post.
Thanks

The divisions are sad, but this was a great post from someone who is a part of it. Thank you.

Thanks for reading :slight_smile:

God bless you,and your church

@Thomas48,
are you pretending to hack original Syrian christians? your post only contains myths which is not justifiable since there is no reliable sources available.Original syrian christians persisted/persists only under vilarvattam dynasty in present Thrissur district while some converted low caste suddenly formed a group known as knanaya and made a division themself. Southists are not Syro Malabar christians nor they had came from outside Indian subcontinent.

Thank you for your words Mr.Joe, I read a previous thread where you pestered a Knanaya user and only had rude comments to make about the community. So I would prefer if you didn’t post in my threads. After this comment I won’t be replying to any of your posts,

Thank you
-Thomas

Thank you for your words Mr.Joe, I read a previous thread where you pestered a Knanaya user and only had rude comments to make about the community. So I would prefer if you didn’t post in my threads. After this comment I won’t be replying to any of your posts,

Thank you
-Thomas

Sorry for the late Mr.Thomas,
Anyway your attempt to Hack Original St.Thomas christians and their traditions is good but failed because of another st.Thomas christians in the forum.I also inform you the fact that the mentioned so called ‘Knanaya user’ is banned for using abusive words and misguiding others in the forum(I remember the name as fijiq).It is my freedom to make my viewpoint and knowledge anywhere in the universe whether u like it or not.I will oppose any attempt from anywhere to question our identity and supremacy from anywhere from other perpetuiers like you.
regards
jo:thumbsup:

I thought you could respect my wishes but I guess not. Daffy just give it up friend, you and your Anti-Knanaya friends at nasrani.net can say all you want and do all you want to fight your little “online war” against Knanayas but at the end of the day we still have our Churches, Metropolitan, and Archdiocese :slight_smile: and however much you wish it, there’s no changing that.

I thought you could respect my wishes but I guess not. Daffy just give it up friend, you and your Anti-Knanaya friends at nasrani.net can say all you want and do all you want to fight your little “online war” against Knanayas but at the end of the day we still have our Churches, Metropolitan, and Archdiocese and however much you wish it, there’s no changing that.

Dear knai thomman’s vediyude makkale,
The online war is the propoganda which is proposed by the so called southists in and around kottayam district in full communion with those migrated to chicago.I had explained the history of the biggest lie called ‘Knanaya’ in my earlier posts. The wikipedia article itself was modified by southists to get supremacy over other christian denominations and both the diocese (in kottayam and chingavanam) has dedicated sections/departments to insert the newly created HISTORY ( :confused: ) via websites and similar medias.isn’t it the real ONLINE WAR against other christian denominations?
You may have a dark history where no other christian denominations were afraid to mingle with you fellows and hesitated to marry. In the modern era you fellows termed it as endogamy :stuck_out_tongue: ?
And last but not least, everybody know that you are just converted christians like any other christian in India since none of the genetic results proves you have a single J2(COHEN) model in your genetics.
N.B:- If knai thomman was here and you fellows have the lineage of him,then you may have it…

All the best to Keep up your hate speach/supremacy via online medias knowing above facts :thumbsup:

regards
Jo

Daffy please find me some quotes of how us Knanayas have propagandized our history and have used hate speech. I tell you right now, the only thing us Knananites post online is the history we were taught. It seems to be other Christians who come and instigate strife, just like this situation right now between you and I. If you haven’t noticed us Knananites never go looking for trouble, it is other St.Thomas Christians who come and attack us. And that is just nonsense, supremacy? what are you talking about? Get with the picture we are living in the 21st century.

But like the past centuries us Knananites just ignore the other St.Thomas Christians even online, because there is nothing they can do to alter or change what we have. I’am honestly starting to think it is some sort of jealousy because these other St.Thomas Christians try to defame and uproot Knananites every chance they get.

Please go read the Wikipedia it is nothing like our Knanaya History, It is written by Wikipedia mediators who find historical references and not the oral history of us Knananites. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya also view the talk page the mediators do not allow Knanaya users to post our oral traditions - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AKnanaya

Now I don’t care for the argument between you and the user fijiq, but its pretty hilarious that he got banned instead of you. The user fijiq even praised the Syro Malabar Church many times and even spoke well of Mar George Alencherry.

Qutoes from Daffyjoe concerning Knanayas-
“I dont think there will be any metran or Major archbishop from a bunch of empty headed people with false claims.”
“I am precautioning you all that please dont fire me after seeing the horror film”
“But we don’t like to use your cemeteries since it is air conditioned holy *****.”
"So now you may understood why I called so called southists as “FELLOWS HAVING DIRTY CULTURE”

Now from reading the other thread I understand that DNA is one of your problems against Knanayas and I understand that but what about our Knanayas wedding traditions? There are many that parallel with Jewish Wedding traditions especially that of the Yemenite Jews. Also please do understand Knanayas were Jewish-Christians when they migrated or early converts to Christianity that still clung to Jewish Customs, I don’t understand where people get the idea that we remained Jews during our time in India. We were East Syriac Christians who clung to old practices.

Examples-

  1. Knanaya Vazhu Pidutham (Blessing by placing hands on the heads of the couple)

The Jewish Tradition-
“Some parents put their hands on the head of the bride and groom at the bedekin when they give them this blessing, just as many parents do on Friday night at the Shabbat table. The custom of putting one’s hands on another as they are blessed is an old practice, perhaps going back as far as Moses and Joshua.”

[ATTACH]16186[/ATTACH]

  1. Knanaya Mylanchi (Henna on the Hands and Feet of the Bride)

The Yemenite Tradition-
“Yemenite and other Eastern Jewish communities also perform a henna ceremony, an ancient ritual with Bronze Age origins, a few weeks or days before the wedding. In the ceremony the bride and her guests hands and feet are decorated in intricate designs with a cosmetic paste derived from the henna plant.”

[ATTACH]16187[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]16188[/ATTACH]

  1. Knanaya Mylanchi (Beautification of the Bride and Ritual Bath)

The Jewish Tradition-
“Just prior to the wedding, a bride immerses herself in the mikvah (a ritual bath), with the purpose of spiritual purification.”

  1. Knanaya Wedding Songs (Most explain marriage life and the Old Testament)

The Yemenite Tradition-
“Songs are sung as a central part of a seven-day wedding celebration and their lyrics often tell of friendship and love in alternating verses of Hebrew and Arabic.”

  1. Knanaya Wedding Canopy (Put above the bride and groom when leaving the Church)

The Jewish Tradition-
A chuppah also huppah, chupah, or chuppa, is a canopy under which a Jewish couple stand during their wedding ceremony. It consists of a cloth or sheet, sometimes a tallit, stretched or supported over four poles, or sometimes manually held up by attendants to the ceremony.

  1. Knanaya Wedding Crown and Turban (Crown worn bride and turban by the Groom)

The Yemenite Tradition-
Similar Crowns worn, ill post a picture.
[ATTACH]16183[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]16184[/ATTACH]

  1. Knanaya Ven Pachor (A special sweet rice pudding)

The Jewish Tradition-
“Sephardic Weddings often begin with a first course called sutlach a sweet rice pudding featuring coconut milk, honey, and almonds” I’ll post a picture of stulac, you’ll notice it looks just like Ven Pachor.
[ATTACH]16185[/ATTACH]

  1. Knanaya Aduchu Thura (Shutting and opening of the bride’s chamber at the end of the marriage festivities at home)

The Jewish Tradition-
“When they reached the house of the groom’s father, the couple would go into the bridal chamber which the groom had prepared and shut the door. The wedding guests would be assembled in the father’s house to celebrate the marriage. The wedding was actually going to take seven days (until the appearance of the bride and groom from the chamber). But the celebrating could not start until the marriage had been consummated. The groom’s “best man” would stand outside the door and when the groom told him (through the door) the marriage had been consummated, the celebration of the wedding guests would begin and continue for a week!”

Sources of Jewish Traditions-

books.google.com/books?id=3rwiPECXDocC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=Jewish+sweets+in+wedding&source=bl&ots=fIQMJ0371W&sig=EmgVuzAVWBLQcyD_nIFAfTl1Qyo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dAgaUZSFJoqY9QS3pYGYDw&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Jewish%20sweets%20in%20wedding&f=false

netplaces.com/jewish-weddings/pre-ceremony-traditions/blessings-from-parents.htm

gindorf.us/coolstuff/writings/articles/wedding.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews#Weddings_and_marriage_traditions

jewishweddingnetwork.com/jewish-wedding-traditions

I’am honestly starting to think it is some sort of jealousy because these other St.Thomas Christians try to defame and uproot Knananites every chance they get.

Oh,In that case you should be jealous against original Syrian catholic people in kerala who are much cute looking than your community.after all, The question is “For WHAT REASON original syrian catholics in kerala be jealous of you?!!!” anyway we dont change our name of appans and our community like southists changed to “KNANAYA”. ithu thomman vedi vacha vediyude kali aano aavo? :thumbsup:

Please go read the Wikipedia it is nothing like our Knanaya History, It is written by Wikipedia mediators who find historical references and not the oral history of us Knananites. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knanaya also view the talk page the mediators do not allow Knanaya users to post our oral traditions - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AKnanaya

it is public website which anybody can edit.That is why I mentioned that chingavanam and kottayam agents of southist people purposely insert the nonsense into it without
any reference or validation.I also think the Thomas42 in wikipedia talk page is also you and you tried to revert a 10000 times other moderators tried to correct the nonsense posted by you. :o

Now I don’t care for the argument between you and the user fijiq, but its pretty hilarious that he got banned instead of you. The user fijiq even praised the Syro Malabar Church many times and even spoke well of Mar George Alencherry.

OMG! He may be banned because of the nonsense he portrayed by insulting pope.

Now from reading the other thread I understand that DNA is one of your problems against Knanayas and I understand that but what about our Knanayas wedding traditions? There are many that parallel with Jewish Wedding traditions especially that of the Yemenite Jews. Also please do understand Knanayas were Jewish-Christians when they migrated or early converts to Christianity that still clung to Jewish Customs, I don’t understand where people get the idea that we remained Jews during our time in India. We were East Syriac Christians who clung to old practices.

So you are deviating from the topics by admitting a strict failure,good.After all you cannot beat science although the other methods may effective on fooling westeners. These type of wedding practices are still in and around your area with dravidian culture and also your DNA matches them too.ie, vellalla gowders has the similar genetic lineage and wedding customs similar to southists/knanaya.search with your on time on youtube and no use of coping and pasting that of yemeni jews and other models.

The models in the picture are cute but I afraid they are just models and not anyone of original southist members.

Finaly I have another doubt, Are you fellows still christian? :confused:

Before I begin to refute, please stop bringing up DNA. Until these DNA results are made public and we can all see them, there is no point in bringing up your favorite point of Knanaya DNA.

Much Cuter? What? Why do you attack my statements with such fury? Why are you incapable of replying without insulting? You once again call my people ugly, please calm down there is no reason to become defensive.

It is public website which anybody can edit.That is why I mentioned that chingavanam and kottayam agents of southist people purposely insert the nonsense into it without
any reference or validation.I also think the Thomas42 in wikipedia talk page is also you and you tried to revert a 10000 times other moderators tried to correct the nonsense posted by you. :o

Yes that Thomas is me and yes it is a public website but the moderators only allow additions with formal and accurate sources. That is why they did not allow me to add in the “Traditions and Customs” section because I could not find a legible online source. The sources they require are book sources by scholars, like that of Richard M Swaderski who studied Knananites.

OMG! He may be banned because of the nonsense he portrayed by insulting pope.

Can you please find me the quote where the Knanaya user Fijiq insulted the Pope? I’m interested to see what your talking about. Of course I have no right to know why or why not a user was banned but I believe fijiq was banned for accusing Knanaya Vicar General of Chicago Father Mutholam of neglect, in another thread.

So you are deviating from the topics by admitting a strict failure,good.After all you cannot beat science although the other methods may effective on fooling westeners. These type of wedding practices are still in and around your area with dravidian culture and also your DNA matches them too.ie, vellalla gowders has the similar genetic lineage and wedding customs similar to southists/knanaya.search with your on time on youtube and no use of coping and pasting that of yemeni jews and other models.

The Gounders have two practices that are similar to Knanayas, their Vazhu Mangalym song and the barber at their weddings. Vazhu and Mangalym are common words that have to do with marriage, just because the Gounders have a song about marriage does not mean they have any connection to Knanayas. Besides our song Vazhvhenna Vazhu mentions Alaha Nayan and Mishiha Karthav, I doubt any Gounders would be singing about them… Also the Gounders may have one song that is to a small small factor similar to a Knanaya song just by name but what about the other 30-40 Knanaya Songs? Do Gounders have those as well?

Now the part of the Barber, A barber at a wedding is a distinct custom to Knanaya Christians. But hey! look at that, A barber also plays an important part of Tunisian Jewish Weddings. Please Read the article I have posted below, the Tunisian Jewish barbers scarf is also significant, just like at Knanaya Weddings. The Gounders may have this custom, but so do Knanayas, and according to this article also Tunisian Jews.

Tunisian Jewish Wedding-
Scroll down to title “Importance of the Barber”
chestofbooks.com/food/household/Woman-Encyclopaedia-3/Marriage-Customs-in-Many-Lands-A-Jewish-Wedding-In-Tunis.html#.URxgzPKJToE

Here are links to a Knanaya wedding and a Gounder wedding. In the Gounder wedding I see Hindu Priests at work, performing a vast variety of lovely rituals but no Knanaya Customs, please tell me if you find some and give me the minute and second and compare it to this old Knanaya Wedding video.

Knanaya Wedding
youtube.com/watch?v=QEN1UW86xdI

And Oh look at that! The women in this video are wearing White Chatta Mundu didn’t you say in the other Knanaya thread, that Knanaya women did not wear Chatta Mundu?

Gounder Wedding
Part 2- youtube.com/watch?v=94El5YogUKA
Part 3- youtube.com/watch?v=EyiLOeFcGDk
Part 4- youtube.com/watch?v=Lnt-FkU4txQ
Part 5- youtube.com/watch?v=8l8DUwj_HaA

The models in the picture are cute but I afraid they are just models and not anyone of original southist members.

That’s interesting, why do you think the above pictures are not Knananites? I mean of course the couples on the right are Yemenite Jews but the left are Knananites. The first picture is of Knanaya Vazhu Pidutham. The second is that of a Knananite Mylanchi, when Henna is put on the brides hands and feat, I posted that to show the parellel to Yemenite Henna. The third I posted to show the comparison between Knanaites Weddings crowns/turbans and that of Yemenite Jews. If you think these are “models” just search up Knanaya Wedding on Google images you’ll get hundreds of similar images, I mean unless you think their all models as well.

Oh also Daffy! I hope you had a blessed Ash Wednesday, just curious but does our church officially celebrate it on Monday now? Because a couple years back the Chicago St.Thomas Diocese churches all started celebrating it on Monday.

Also could you help me out, the Syriac song at 29:33 of the link (ill post below), is it sung at all Syro Malabar Churches? Or is this a Knanaya Custom like the Bar Mariam song?

youtube.com/watch?v=-9CnWvGNbAU

Just a question about the Barru Mariyam song - if it is Assyrian/Chaldean custom as claimed, why is it not sung in the Chaldean or Assyrian Churches or even the Chaldean-Syrian Church in India?

Before I begin to refute, please stop bringing up DNA. Until these DNA results are made public and we can all see them, there is no point in bringing up your favorite point of Knanaya DNA.

I don’t understand, is it of non-importance? It is the answer for all your paternal queries and which is easily understandable to honourable foreign members of the forum.And eliminating the void in your parental dynasty who even have the house name with Chazhi (Ash) and Kadan (Wild beasts) and dont know the names of the forefathers 3 generations ago.

Much Cuter? What? Why do you attack my statements with such fury? Why are you incapable of replying without insulting? You once again call my people ugly, please calm down there is no reason to become defensive.

Oh, where I had insulted and used the word “UGLY”? can you point it out? :rolleyes:

Yes that Thomas is me and yes it is a public website but the moderators only allow additions with formal and accurate sources. That is why they did not allow me to add in the “Traditions and Customs” section because I could not find a legible online source. The sources they require are book sources by scholars, like that of Richard M Swaderski who studied Knananites.

Even your traditions have no reference along with your new name “KNANAYA”. Where is an ancient book quoting your new name “Knanaya”? I lost the belief in moderators of wikipedia since why there is a page with no refernces at all.

Can you please find me the quote where the Knanaya user Fijiq insulted the Pope? I’m interested to see what your talking about. Of course I have no right to know why or why not a user was banned but I believe fijiq was banned for accusing Knanaya Vicar General of Chicago Father Mutholam of neglect, in another thread.

Insulting Father Mutholam, a representative of Pope, is insulting Pope.

The Gounders have two practices that are similar to Knanayas, their Vazhu Mangalym song and the barber at their weddings. Vazhu and Mangalym are common words that have to do with marriage, just because the Gounders have a song about marriage does not mean they have any connection to Knanayas. Besides our song Vazhvhenna Vazhu mentions Alaha Nayan and Mishiha Karthav, I doubt any Gounders would be singing about them… Also the Gounders may have one song that is to a small small factor similar to a Knanaya song just by name but what about the other 30-40 Knanaya Songs? Do Gounders have those as well?

Thomas, My statements stated holds the above lines true. Your southists songs was fabricated after the creation of dioceses after 1910. The linguistic scholars also admit that many of the words in songs are crafted after 1910s. Most of words are in neo malayalam where before 1900s keralites used old malayalam. I said “you people have more similarities to Dravidian gowders than Yemeni jews which asserts that you might be excommunicated from their tribe and accepted christianity”.

Now the part of the Barber, A barber at a wedding is a distinct custom to Knanaya Christians. But hey! look at that, A barber also plays an important part of Tunisian Jewish Weddings. Please Read the article I have posted below, the Tunisian Jewish barbers scarf is also significant, just like at Knanaya Weddings. The Gounders may have this custom, but so do Knanayas, and according to this article also Tunisian Jews.

FYI Gowders also have Baraber in the weddings who are treated as VIP like knanayas.I think we don’t need to go upto Yemen to find similarity between southists and gowders, who are less than 100 kms from your native.

And Oh look at that! The women in this video are wearing White Chatta Mundu didn’t you say in the other Knanaya thread, that Knanaya women did not wear Chatta Mundu?

I said and I proved. The wearing of Chattayum mundum was copied from northists where your grandmas tied an ash to the sarees, ie, why you fellows called CHARAMKETTIKAL (Ash tiers). Can you deny that? surprisingly this also a custom with Vellalagowders. Whether Yemeni jews ties an ashbag to their sarees? Or do they wear a saree? Lol …

Oh also Daffy! I hope you had a blessed Ash Wednesday, just curious but does our church officially celebrate it on Monday now? Because a couple years back the Chicago St.Thomas Diocese churches all started celebrating it on Monday.

Anyway what you are trying to ascertain? We East syriac Syrian Malabar christians studied our noble practice from a group of Ash tied/circumcised fellows who are thinking sometimes they are Yemeni Jews, sometimes from Cana, sometimes from Goa, sometimes converted from vellalagowders(whose job was previously washing cloths of other prominent men of royal families) who migrated to Chicago? Since I had said truth means I had insulted you. Anyway SMC Thrissur officially celebrate it on Monday.

Also could you help me out, the Syriac song at 29:33 of the link (ill post below), is it sung at all Syro Malabar Churches? Or is this a Knanaya Custom like the Bar Mariam song?

youtube.com/watch?v=-9CnWvGNbAU

Let me study and reply you.

peace with jesus
Jo

Before I refute, Daffy I would please appreciate if you at least acknowledged my points, I viewed your points and even watched a few videos of the Gounder weddings, though I did not find parallels. Perhaps you could at least try to evaluate some points I make instead of completely ignoring them. We maybe members of two diocese me Kottayam and you Thrissur but we are both Syro Malabar brethren right? So we could show the proper respect to each other, instead of making complete fools of our selves on this website.

Yes I can understand your point but until those DNA results are made viewable to the public I can not take in this factor. Also there is one family named Chazikadan, but that does not determine the House Names of all Knananites. I can give you a few examples Knanaya House names from my church directory.

-Athimatathil -Thayil -Eranical -Illikattil -Kochuvettil -Muthukulathu -Kandathil -Polacheril- Thundathil- Chuckangal- Neicheril- Nedumakil- Makil- Muttathil- Kunnacherry- Ellankil - and many others.

Oh, where I had insulted and used the word “UGLY”? can you point it out?

I assumed this is what you mean, when you say phrases like “Syrian Catholic people in Kerala who are much cuter than your community”. Also by the fact that you called my community “a horror to look at” in another tread brings me to this conclusion.

Even your traditions have no reference along with your new name “KNANAYA”. Where is an ancient book quoting your new name “Knanaya”? I lost the belief in moderators of wikipedia since why there is a page with no refernces at all.

The term Syro Malabar is not an ancient name, though that is the name of our sui juris. Because Syro Malabar is a reference to those Catholics who follow the Syriac Rite of worship and live in Malabar. Following this up, the term “Knanaya” is not an ancient name but it is a reference to those Christians who follow the traditions of Knai Thoma and his party, hence “Knanaya” or “Knai”. Another example is the Syro Malankara Catholics, a disambiguation for them in Kerala is “Reethakar” but you don’t see that as their official Church name. In this way, the name of a group or a church should be appropriate to its traditions,customs, and history, not to a disambiguation.

Insulting Father Mutholam, a representative of Pope, is insulting Pope.

The topic of Father Mutholam will make any Knanaya Catholics blood boil but I will not go into detail because it is off topic.

Thomas, My statements stated holds the above lines true. Your southists songs was fabricated after the creation of dioceses after 1910. The linguistic scholars also admit that many of the words in songs are crafted after 1910s. Most of words are in neo malayalam where before 1900s keralites used old malayalam. I said “you people have more similarities to Dravidian gowders than Yemeni jews which asserts that you might be excommunicated from their tribe and accepted christianity”.

I would like you to listen to a few songs on this website link I give you. Listen to the songs “Managunamudaya”, “Moovararuvan”,“Aalam Chamanja”, do the words in these songs sound like new Malayalam to you?

Please scroll over the media tab and click music under it.
houstonknanayacatholics.com/

FYI Gowders also have Baraber in the weddings who are treated as VIP like knanayas.I think we don’t need to go upto Yemen to find similarity between southists and gowders, who are less than 100 kms from your native.

I found one similarity between the Gounders and Knananites, that being the barber. Their Vazhu Mangalaym song like I said earlier is a slight slight similarity just because of name, which is barely a similarity at all because those two terms Vazhu and Mangalaym refer to marriage. If you can find more similarities please find me the minute and second in the Gounder Wedding and compare it to the minute and second in a Knanaya Wedding video. I will review these if you can find any.

I found and listed eight similarities between Knanaya and Jewish weddings, and even provided similar pictures.

I said and I proved. The wearing of Chattayum mundum was copied from northists where your grandmas tied an ash to the sarees, ie, why you fellows called CHARAMKETTIKAL (Ash tiers). Can you deny that? surprisingly this also a custom with Vellalagowders. Whether Yemeni jews ties an ashbag to their sarees? Or do they wear a saree? Lol …

The Chatta theory is interesting because my grandmother and even great grandmother wore Chattas. I will provide you a picture of my great grandmother wearing the traditional Chatta if I can find one.

I believe the term “Charamkettikal” was a misnomer, according to the Knanaya Community “charam” was worn to commemorate a great fire that burned down an entire Knanaya Village, hence the “ash” or “charam” was worn in a sign of respect and grievance.

Anyway what you are trying to ascertain? We East syriac Syrian Malabar christians studied our noble practice from a group of Ash tied/circumcised fellows who are thinking sometimes they are Yemeni Jews, sometimes from Cana, sometimes from Goa, sometimes converted from vellalagowders(whose job was previously washing cloths of other prominent men of royal families) who migrated to Chicago? Since I had said truth means I had insulted you. Anyway SMC Thrissur officially celebrate it on Monday.

Studied our noble practice from Knananites? According to our Knanaya History, the Knananites reached Malabar and our forefathers only strengthened the church of Malabar not created it. The Church of Malabar had existed since Mar Thoma Sleeha, he is your father and ours is Knai Thoma/Urha Mar Yosef.

The reason why there are so many Knanaya Theories is because we are still trying to relearn our History which was lost throughout the centuries. Have you heard of KRG? Or Knanaya Research Group, it is a group that tries to find more facts and information about our past. History is a very shrouded thing and all communities try to find small pieces of factors to put together their official history. I am sure there are many mysteries that still surround our Syro Malabar Church.

Also thank you for your answer to my Question about Ash Wednesday, did you find an answer to the Syriac song I mentioned?

are you pretending to hack original Syrian christians?

Why do you say this? Our Knanaya History is entirely different than that of the Malabar Christians. How did we hack your history?

I believe the Chaldeans sing Barru Mariyam on important feast days such as Easter and Christmas. If not, Barru Mariyam is a distinct song to the Knanaya Christians.

Also Syro Malankara I would like a third party view on this topic, do you think from the points provided the Knananites follow the traditions of Jews of old or Gounder Hindus?

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