Standards Too High For Man?


#1

I know that sometimes they say to raise your standards high and not to settle for a man who disrespects you, but to what extent can standards be idealistic? I’m not talking about silly stuff like “No, not him, he’s a red hed,” or “I’m breaking up with him, he keeps making a funny noise when he chews his food.”

I mean in terms of setting standards for a man’s character in order for him to be worthy to pursue a relationship with. I know that men (and women) are both flawed and that if you want a perfect spouse then you had better join the religious life and that even virtuous people mess up, but shouldn’t say being consistently rude or *intentionally getting *drunk without a care be significant issues when it comes to evaluating a man’s character?

Is it really too much for a woman to ask to want a gentleman who at least tries to be compassionate and charitable (and at times messes up just like the rest of us) and who strives to be responsible in what he does (and again at times messes up just like the rest of us,) instead of a man who appears to be frequently be the opposite?

I’ve just been getting frustrated with the young men around me, but part of that appears to be that some of them at my university are still in the immature college partier stage (such refusing to be responisble with alcohol,) I feel older than them and I’m only 22. I’m no Immaculate Conception but maybe I’m at a different faith stage. I know that I’ll be meeting other men after college, but it’s frustrating to see Catholic guys at a Catholic college who have orthodox beliefs, say the rosary, and sometimes attend daily mass, yet have an astonishing lack of trying to be charitable and who are not trying to be responsible. I hate to sound self-righteous and I don’t see myself as worth any more than them.

Is this definition of gentleman too much or should I lower my standards?

An Authentic Gentleman- genuine, chivalrous, not arrogant or rude (as in at least tries to be charitable), not possessive, not the jealous type, not abusive, lovingly protective, faithful, willing to sacrifice out of love, confident, striving for purity of thought action and speech, cooperative, respectful, responsible, and trustworthy


#2

It may not be that your standards are too high. It may just be how you are phrasing your question. It may just be that you have not met the one you are called to marry and the fact you are annoyed by these things shows you that these men that you have dated are not the ones that you have been called to marry.


#3

An Authentic Gentleman- genuine, chivalrous, not arrogant or rude (as in at least tries to be charitable), not possessive, not the jealous type, not abusive, lovingly protective, faithful, willing to sacrifice out of love, confident, striving for purity of thought action and speech, cooperative, respectful, responsible, and trustworthy

I don't think your standards are too high, and this is coming from a guy. Though I will say, you will find plenty of guys that are HONESTLY trying every day to fulfill those requirements, but fall short. From what I understand, the men you were talking about don't fit that category. (Catholic schools are where the most lukewarm Catholics are in my opinion. There are those that take their faith seriously, sure, but many only use the label for the cafeteria. This is only coming from my experience at a Catholic high school though)

The worst thing you could do is settle for someone whom you know doesn't fit. One of the best talks I've yet heard on this subject was from Stephanie Weinert. I would link the mp3 of the actual talk in question, but I had to buy it from FOCUS conference so I probably can't share it legally. Anyways, Stephanie was in a Catholic college as well, and she was sure she would find her husband there. After all, everyone's Catholic, so someone's gotta be there! But she didn't find him. Her family kept telling her she would become an old maid for being too picky, but she rejected the men she knew would not fulfill her calling. After a few years of seeking after college, and a lot of time spent believing that what her family said might come true, she is now happily married (and celebrating her first anniversary I believe).

Stephanie said it's important to find that good spot between being too picky in a spouse and not being picky enough. From your requirements, it looks like you're pretty close to the sweet spot. A common mistake Stephanie mentioned is thinking that if the other person is a devout Catholic as well, it will automatically work. But you have to share interests too! You'll have to spend the rest of each other's lives together. You have to have other activities you can do together besides pray! (even though prayer is one of the most excellent activities you can do together)

That's why I'm looking for a devout Catholic girl that also reads, hikes, and/or plays classic videogames :D

Bottom line:
1. Don't think that you are being too picky.
2. Don't settle.
3. And above all, pray that God reveals what type of person you should be seeking. Remember to put God at the forefront of all of your dating endeavors. Remember to properly discern your vocation. And remember that if God wants you to marry a gentleman, he will find one for you.

I hope this is helpful. Weigh it accordingly however, because I am only a 19 year old geek with no practical experience on relationships, only a knowledge of Catholic teaching. :shrug:


#4

So many people make such unrealistic high standards that they miss the point of it in the first place. Sure, parents and teacher may say it meaning exactly that but they aren’t right. Life was never supposed to be easy for us and so many women in my life had such unrealistic expectations that they wanted the perfect guy that had all the money, perfect family, perfect job, etc. Look for a man that is not afraid to stick to his convictions but is also willing to admit when he’s wrong. This is not a sign of weakness. You might even me better off with a man that is not as successful as you had hoped. God may be calling you to help get him to heaven. It may be to have a particular child that he has plans for down the road.

You do want a man that first loves God above everything, period. You want one that is honest, even if it hurts (one willing to tell you his faults, not yours). One who will stick by your side when the smooth skin begins to fade. Someone who would give his last breath to save you. But likewise you must be willing to sacrifice for him too. Marriage is not a one way agreement. Men become frail too and mostly cover it up. Women become successful, but men are expected to become successful. My wife loves me, not my job. That’s why she allowed me to return to school before retirement. She sees her part in this relationship and thought my anxieties and suspicions have misled me to think she doesn’t want this she shows no signs of what I fear.

No one is perfect, your not perfect, so don’t expect to find someone else to be perfect. I had to get away and find a woman from a poor family in a poor state in a poor city in a poor religion to find worth in me. She doesn’t expect rich, fame or power from me. An old girlfriend’s mother told me upon our first encouter “if he’s not rich at least he went to the seminary”. It was insulting and recently she cut me off because she found out my feelings about people that place so much emphasis on it… No loss there.


#5

[quote="tinytherese, post:1, topic:222005"]

Is it really too much for a woman to ask to want a gentleman who at least tries to be compassionate and charitable (and at times messes up just like the rest of us) and who strives to be responsible in what he does (and again at times messes up just like the rest of us,) instead of a man who appears to be frequently be the opposite?

Is this definition of gentleman too much or should I lower my standards?

An Authentic Gentleman- genuine, chivalrous, not arrogant or rude (as in at least tries to be charitable), not possessive, not the jealous type, not abusive, lovingly protective, faithful, willing to sacrifice out of love, confident, striving for purity of thought action and speech, cooperative, respectful, responsible, and trustworthy

[/quote]

Marriage is a sacrament and meant for your entire life. Jesus performed His first miracle when asked by Mother Mary at Canan. I would say that is a pretty good endorsement.

You have to find the man, and he the woman, that touches your soul. Both should be asking God if you are making the right choice. Never think that you can train each other because that isn't going to happen. Generally what you see is what you get. Unfortunately it can go down from there also.

So keep your standards high and know that we all fall on our face on ocassion. It is how we pick ourselves up when making a mistake that is so important. He and She must be able to talk deeply with each other and really enjoy the conversation -- you will be doing that more than anything else during your time together. Both willing to establish a deep prayer life and live by the commandments in a joyful way. Share your time and treasure so as to build a bundle in Heaven. God and love for each other will bind you together. Each of you need to find a job that meets your needs and God's will for you. Be open to life and then you have a great start. If you trust in God, He will bless you many times over.

You are wise for your concern and don't settle for a weak foundation. And pray for big and righteous virtues and the kingdom of God and the rest will follow. May God shower you with blessings, wisdom and your perfect mate.


#6

Definitely don't lower your standards. It sounds to me as though you are well aware of the difference between being too picky about meaningless things and having healthy standards a man must meet before you'll consider him.

I went to a small Catholic liberal arts college, and I too was disappointed when I didn't really find most of the men worth dating. I did date a little, but not anyone with any of the "gentlemanly" qualities you described. I found most of the guys there immature and, while it would have been nice to find my future spouse there, I did not. I was a bit nervous when I graduated, thinking "Great, now where am I ever going to find anyone?" Don't worry- there is plenty of time and other opportunities after college for this. :)

I began dating someone about a year after graduating- with all of those qualities you described as being an authentic gentleman. My advice to you would certainly be to hold out for someone with those qualities. There ARE men out there like this, though I have found that they are few and far between. Don't waste your time on anyone who is less than that, because you want to be ready when you do find him. Any man you date should bring peace to your heart, and someone who doesn't care about being a gentleman or striving to be good will only bring turmoil. Your standards aren't too high; they are right where they should be.


#7

I feel I have been asking myself the same question as you too - perhaps I have been placing too high standards for a partner?

I second the previous answers and just wanted to comment on the answer of Brainfreeze91, although my answer may be somewhat tangential.

I have had practical experience in both spending years living an intense (celibate) apostolic life and afterwards also the experience of courting and dating 3 girls.

The previous life didn't work out, but it has the advantage that though I need to struggle in the actual virtues, I at least gained confidence about my core values in general. It also has the disadvantage that I can become judging - I unconsciously "screen" potential partners whether they also share the same schooled religious values, and perhaps become less "tolerant" or open. These can aid or hinder finding a good relationship, and until now I haven't "succeeded".

When I dated my previous exes, I think I tried to "lower my standards". But perhaps at the back of my mind I still hoped that they would change, and that in fact I really had many expectations.

In the case of the first two relationships, we had to break up due to various important reasons (personality differences, geographic separation, etc.) but there was always one part among these reasons that had to do with my unmet expectations - that the relationship had not fit my Catholic "ideal" i.e. differences in views and virtues regarding sex, contraception, sacraments, etc.

I actually regret that now, looking back, it seems that they felt that I was never "sure" of them. It is heart-wrenching for me to think that I must have seemed so impatient and tentative about the commitment.

Should I have not courted them in the first place, not made them fall in love, if only to make them feel insecure? Was I dishonest all along? It is a heavy thought I continue to confront.

Love I have heard, is accepting persons with their defects. But the love ought to be strong and acted on wisely to find that delicate line between accepting and correcting - cooperating towards growth - improving each other, bringing out the best, and so forth.

On one hand don't just accept someone who later you may be secretly "unsure" of (which can be avoided by sticking to high standards in the first place), as that would just spoil the relationship - on the other hand, if it is the one, he would be the exception - i.e. you would be happy with him with his current shortcomings and be patient enough to help him overcome them / improve if needed.

Finally, attraction really is important - keep you core values, but also develop yourself humanly, becoming more and more naturally attractive. I recently made friends with two other girls, one of them would have been an ideal partner in terms of sharing my values -she is devout Catholic - and she is externally very beautiful - but I just didn't feel "attraction". On the other hand the girls I have dated before and the current girl I am considering dating now attracted/attract me, and yet they did not share many of my values/beliefs - neither were practicing Catholics/Christians. They attracted me for other characteristics in the end (interests, personality).

So it seems we both need to learn to discern more in prayer where and who really is the person who God is preparing us to be with.

Rest assured, guys do exist who will fall in your standards, (and I suppose girls who would fall in mind), and that they are also out there looking for a girl like you. Continue praying and continue to wait, continue to be attractive, but don't open your doors too easily. :thumbsup:


#8

[quote="tinytherese, post:1, topic:222005"]
I've just been getting frustrated with the young men around me, but part of that appears to be that some of them at my university are still in the immature college partier stage (such refusing to be responisble with alcohol,) I feel older than them and I'm only 22. I'm no Immaculate Conception but maybe I'm at a different faith stage. I know that I'll be meeting other men after college, but it's frustrating to see Catholic guys at a Catholic college who have orthodox beliefs, say the rosary, and sometimes attend daily mass, yet have an astonishing lack of trying to be charitable and who are not trying to be responsible. I hate to sound self-righteous and I don't see myself as worth any more than them.

[/quote]

I'm sorry for not having put more effort into reading you entire post. Your age jumped out at me and I realized that you're probably looking at the wrong pool of men.

I think you need to look for a man that really cares for you. Many men mature after the college years. I can tell you horrible stories I know about frat brothers who eventually turned into decent married men. Though I never stooped to that level of disgust I was adversely affected by that environment. I entered a young relationship after leaving the seminary and later I left that relationship at 22 and chose exile in the military for another 4 years. I met my wife towards the end of active duty. You can't get much more real than that. I was preparing to return to the seminary and felt strongly called to marry her instead. I even tried to break it off and God made it perfectly clear for me. When we married we had just turned 22 and 28. I wasn't ready prior to that moment.

Maybe you're looking at the wrong pool of men. Find someone older that has crossed the crazy stage. The last research shows that the brain is still developing through the age of 25. That made sense to me when I heard it because that is the age both of us matured to our present personalities. People change so much during that time. Life pushed us up to the task because of work when more is expected of us. We either put up or shut up..


#9

maybe not standards set to high, but standards set for aspects or traits that are non-essential, such as appearance, while ignoring standards for essentials, such as character.


#10

[quote="Marie682, post:6, topic:222005"]
Definitely don't lower your standards. It sounds to me as though you are well aware of the difference between being too picky about meaningless things and having healthy standards a man must meet before you'll consider him.

I went to a small Catholic liberal arts college, and I too was disappointed when I didn't really find most of the men worth dating. I did date a little, but not anyone with any of the "gentlemanly" qualities you described. I found most of the guys there immature and, while it would have been nice to find my future spouse there, I did not. I was a bit nervous when I graduated, thinking "Great, now where am I ever going to find anyone?" Don't worry- there is plenty of time and other opportunities after college for this. :)

I began dating someone about a year after graduating- with all of those qualities you described as being an authentic gentleman. My advice to you would certainly be to hold out for someone with those qualities. There ARE men out there like this, though I have found that they are few and far between. Don't waste your time on anyone who is less than that, because you want to be ready when you do find him. Any man you date should bring peace to your heart, and someone who doesn't care about being a gentleman or striving to be good will only bring turmoil. Your standards aren't too high; they are right where they should be.

[/quote]

:thumbsup:


#11

[quote="tinytherese, post:1, topic:222005"]
An Authentic Gentleman- genuine, chivalrous, not arrogant or rude (as in at least tries to be charitable), not possessive, not the jealous type, not abusive, lovingly protective, faithful, willing to sacrifice out of love, confident, striving for purity of thought action and speech, cooperative, respectful, responsible, and trustworthy

[/quote]

My husband meets all of these criteria. Men like that are hard to find, but they DO exist!

You won't be able to see every single one of these characteristics right away. How will you know if a man will "sacrifice out of love" until he is confronted with a situation that calls for a sacrifice? How will HE know where to draw the line between "protective" and "possessive" before he truly gets to know you?

When I met my husband, I knew he was one of the rare "good guys." But past relationships (both friendships and relationships) had made me wary of people who seemed too good to be true, and I was always on the lookout for red flags.

For example, I felt betrayed when my husband (fiance at the time) didn't defend me when a female friend of his mocked me in public. I used this one moment as a sign that he wasn't the "protector" that I had hoped my he would be. It took me many years to realize that at the time he didn't know that I had been the victim of bullying throughout my life and that this woman's insult had hit a sensitive nerve. He saw me as a strong confident woman who could stand up for herself, and might even be offended if her fiance intervened. Meanwhile, in his family of origin, confrontation resulted in cruel silent treatments so his instinct in uncomfortable situations is to ignore them until they go away. Many years later, my husband has proven repeatedly that he IS the protector I hoped he would be. The more he gets to know me, the more he learns how he can protect me. What I once thought was a weakness of his has turned into what I perceive to be one of his greatest strengths.

The lesson here is the baggage that you both unconsciously bring to a relationship can lead to FALSE conclusions that a potential spouse is lacking in an essential quality.

I guess my advice is: do not lower your standards, but try to see the best in a potential spouse and try to understand his perceived shortcomings, rather than looking for "red flags" and writing him off at the first sign of trouble.

(Obviously if he is abusing alcohol, abusing you, being unfaithful, etc. those are HUGE RED FLAGS...I'm talking more about the subtle red flags here.) :thumbsup:

Editing to add: I agree with the previous posters about college men being in a "different place" than adult men. After college, I think boys become men. My husband had been out of college for 3 years by the time I met him, and I think he was sufficiently ripe for picking. :p


#12

It is interesting to consider parallel observations. Excerpt from:

*The HR "Wish List" and Courting "Wish List" are Inexorably Intertwined *

It is links between two seemingly unrelated things that start to show you the odd and sometimes amazing psychological, financial, sociological, economic, etc., relationships that exist in the world and helps bring about your understanding of the world to a clearer fruition.

.................................

1 in 5 jobs go unfilled because they CAN'T FIND A QUALIFIED EMPLOYEE?????

And nearly HALF of the organizations in your firm lack qualified workers????

ALL WITH UNEMPLOYMENT AT 9.6%, let alone UNDEREMPLOYMENT IN THE HIGH TEENS?

Really? there's NO QUALIFIED CANDIDATES AMONG THE MILLIONS OF UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE OUT THERE.

Mayhaps I suggest there is a little bit of impossibility in both HR's and women's "requirement list" for potential suitors, be it for a job or a romantic suitor? That asking for a man who is 6'2" or taller, makes lots of money, loves his mother, wants to go to church, but is a bad boy in bed, but not unless you say so, who likes to write you poetry, votes liberal, but is a man's man is about as probable as finding the candidate with 10+ years uninterrupted and progressive experience with a masters in blah blah blah blah (PhD preferred, of course) and billions of certifications who is going to work for an average wage and travel 90% of the time and have no social life out of work?

But, no, no. That CAN"T be it! You keep on going. You keep waiting for that perfect candidate to come along who magically has 8 years of experience in a software that has only been on the market for 3. I mean, there's no WAY charlatans and con artists would ever get through your impenetrable filtering and screening process and just tell you what you want to hear just so they can get the job. I mean it's just like dating, right? Nobody has EVER passed through that shield of yours that was unqualified, and CERTAINLY nobody who was ever qualified did you ever shoot down only to regret later.

Of course.

That never happens.


#13

[quote="C_S_P_B, post:12, topic:222005"]
That asking for a man who is 6'2" or taller, makes lots of money, loves his mother, wants to go to church, but is a bad boy in bed, but not unless you say so, who likes to write you poetry, votes liberal, but is a man's man...

Yes, many women's wish lists are stupid (as are many employers--I've been on the hiring side of the process and have been annoyed with my company's stupid and arbitrary requirements). But the OP's wish list (as she presented it) is very reasonable. She doesn't make arbitrary demands like those suggested in the above paragraph. I don't know why you would jump to the conclusion that her demands are this arbitrary, when the ones she clearly defined seem like realistic attributes to hope for in a man who she will spend the rest of her life with and (hopefully!) raise children with.

[/quote]


#14

[quote="Augusta_Sans, post:13, topic:222005"]
Yes, many women's wish lists are stupid (as are many employers--I've been on the hiring side of the process and have been annoyed with my company's stupid and arbitrary requirements). But the OP's wish list (as she presented it) is very reasonable. She doesn't make arbitrary demands like those suggested in the above paragraph. I don't know why you would jump to the conclusion that her demands are this arbitrary, when the ones she clearly defined seem like realistic attributes to hope for in a man who she will spend the rest of her life with and (hopefully!) raise children with.

[/quote]

I didn't jump to any conclusions but merely wanted to explore the topic for the hundreds of others that may stumble upon this thread. I also think it is useful to understand the conditions of society and others.


#15

Fair enough. I personally make an effort to stay on topic for the sake of the OP and start a new thread for things that aren’t relevant to the original post. Not suggesting it’s wrong for you to discuss irrelevant topics–I don’t know all the proper etiquette for this forum. :o


#16

DON'T lower your standards. It sounds like you do have a realistic wish list in mind, even if it doesn't seem like it. I went through the same thing in college. I went to a Catholic college, hoping that while I was there, I could find a nice guy. Most guys were like you describe, and I felt like I was out of place among all the drinking and parties. I was able to find a couple of guys that were serious about their faith, but apart from our faith, we had absolutely nothing in common.

You will meet the right guy when God's timing is right. Don't settle, you'll just be setting yourself up for a lifetime of unhappiness. Someone pointed out that guys tend to mature fully once they're about 25 years old. There's a good amount of truth to that. But I didn't want someone who had been able to "play" around until 25 and then decide to calm down. I found a great guy to marry, so there are nice guys around. It just takes some prayer and some patience. College isn't the only place to meet guys, so don't worry if you don't find one while you're there. You will still have plenty of opportunities to meet nice men.


#17

[quote="SummerSmiles, post:16, topic:222005"]
DON'T lower your standards. It sounds like you do have a realistic wish list in mind, even if it doesn't seem like it. I went through the same thing in college. I went to a Catholic college, hoping that while I was there, I could find a nice guy. Most guys were like you describe, and I felt like I was out of place among all the drinking and parties. I was able to find a couple of guys that were serious about their faith, but apart from our faith, we had absolutely nothing in common.

You will meet the right guy when God's timing is right. Don't settle, you'll just be setting yourself up for a lifetime of unhappiness. Someone pointed out that guys tend to mature fully once they're about 25 years old. There's a good amount of truth to that. But I didn't want someone who had been able to "play" around until 25 and then decide to calm down. I found a great guy to marry, so there are nice guys around. It just takes some prayer and some patience. College isn't the only place to meet guys, so don't worry if you don't find one while you're there. You will still have plenty of opportunities to meet nice men.

[/quote]

As PbloPicasso pointed out "the brain is still developing through the age of 25" which equally applies to both men and women. So it is important for BOTH sexes to consider this. And further, the "nice guys" definition means different things to women than it does to men. Men try to be the "nice guy" that women say they want, but since the definition is different, it rarely works in finding the REAL and good men. You may think I am being critical or quibbling about your choice of words but the reality goes far deeper.


#18

Is this definition of gentleman too much or should I lower my standards?

An Authentic Gentleman- genuine, chivalrous, not arrogant or rude (as in at least tries to be charitable), not possessive, not the jealous type, not abusive, lovingly protective, faithful, willing to sacrifice out of love, confident, striving for purity of thought action and speech, cooperative, respectful, responsible, and trustworthy

I think there is your problem. Not that the standards are too high. But, that there are so many of them. This is the dating problem magnified.

I try to keep my non-negotiable standards basic. Catholic, orthodox, and shares common values and goals on life. Everything else, I would have a standard on except if she was way out there ugly.

All the items you listed sound very generic. It is like reading what an employer is looking for on a job posting. Job posting will have 1-2 key requirements and 4-5 basic generic HR requirements such as “hard worker”.

I tend to think it is more important to look at the person as a whole. Instead of nitpicking over certain things, I try to see how her faults impact her overall.

It is unrealistic to ask for a perfect spouse. Yet we all do this. The problem with a list such as yours is that they may not be present all the time and it is hard for one person to be very good with each of those. People may try hard to meet every on your list and might meet most or all but everyone will struggle to be good at all those things.

If you want those qualities present at all times, then yes you do have too high standards.

However, instead of making a list of demands I think it is best to look at the person as a whole. Sure, the person might not be perfect but overall he/she is a good person and someone I love despite his/her faults.

Women tend to want perfection more than guys do in the personality and emotional sense. Men tend want perfection in the looks department. Yet we tell men their standards are too high and tell women their standards are just right.

In college, men are still kids for the most part. Most still have their mom do their laundry for them. They are living their youth to the fullest. Most dont want marriage right now.

It is only on here that I see many college age people looking for marriage. I never see it anywhere else. Most of the college age people I know are thinking graduate school and finding a job. None are worried about marriage or even thinking about it.

Many men mature fast after college. I can attest to that personally. It is still a journey though. I am constantly learning and improving. It is hard to attract a woman when you are still learning. Women want stability and security. Young men cannot often provide financial security and most are gaining work experience and so are not very stable.

In our culture, men go for younger women and women for older men. This means that women at age 22-23 have a much larger supply than young men do.

If a woman wants to grow with a man through thick and thin then I think college men have great potential. No doubt that a young man is a project. Until a man is 25-30 he will be a bit of a project.

It is also equally true to say that young women are a project as well. Many women get hyped up to be more “mature” than men. This is not necessarily true. It puts them on a pedestal they have not earned. Ive seen many young women that claim to be mature and they arent. Women tend to like to think they are mature beyond their years but in reality they are in the same position as the guys their age are. The difference is that older men are attracted to them and this causes young women to play up their maturity quality.

When they see older mature men they then complain about men their age not being mature. Well, a man cannot magically reach maturity and neither can a woman. It becomes a situation where women arent always good enough themselves for older men but wont settle for the men their own age despite being in the same position as those guys.

If you must find a spouse in college dont go into it hoping to find a man that is like the older and more established men. It is unrealistic. Look for someone with potential and that has all the essentials such as religion and values.

There are no guarantees in any relationship. If you look for too many qualities then you will be utterly disappointed in marriage. It is easy to mask problems in dating. In marriage, those negatives come to light. You begin to feel like you were duped into marrying this person.

Why feel that way at all? Thats why I say accept there will be some positives and negatives. As long as the negatives do not outweight the positives, I think it is best to go into a marriage loving everything about the person instead of the positive qualities that will eventually prove to be a thorn in your side when he falls short. I think it is better when you go into marriage knowing what you have instead of being unpleasantly surprised when you discover he masked his negative side to get you to marry him.


#19

OP, your standards aren't out of line, but you will do well to be realistic and compassionate about your search. There are very few societal pressures to bring out these qualities in a man, and there are even some bent on extinguishing these fine qualities in men who have them. For instance, men are actively encouraged to be selfish and juvenile before marriage--and after marriage if they can get away with it--rather than being fun-loving and capable of relaxation with other men in ways that are still appropriate to a grown-up. Men are taught to see women as objects, not as daughters of the Lord, or else as beings that are in no way different and who should be treated in no way different than another man. I could go on, but suffice it to say that getting to the place you're describing is a steep uphill battle, even for the ones with enough going for them to know to want it. Consider the difficulty of a woman to reach this in our culture and you will know what I mean: Similarly, (too,) women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.** 1 Tim. 2: 9-10 **Suffice it to say that this is not the ideal of womanhood that our young men and women are being bombarded with, either.

When I was about your age, I came up with this rule: 1 in 10 guys are worth dealing with just about from birth, about 8 in 10 aren't worth dealing with until they're 25, and 1 in 10 are never going to be worth dealing with at all. I'm not sure if the ratios are correct, but the general idea has proven to be spot on: Many men are not sufficiently mature to even consider as marriage material until they are out of college.

Men know this; I have not met any over the age of 25 who differ with my basic premise. Many of the ones who were early to mature went through high school and college disgusted with their peers and how those peers talked about the women they dated. I am convinced that this is why so many fathers would like to lock up their daughters until their daughters are out of college. They look at the young men their daughters are dating, and they think: I was you once, buddy. That is my daughter you have there, though. Don't even think it. If you hurt her, I will hunt you down like a dog.

Be open to having to communicate that you like "chivalrous", and be willing to adjust your definition to the realities of the 21st century. By that I do not mean to embrace a feminist ideal that says men and women are the same. I mean that the chances are high that you make more than he does, and should not expect him to pay for everything, that you do not wear a skirt and heels everywhere and therefore have a less obvious need to have doors opened for you and chairs pulled out in every circumstance, that kind of thing. We cannot afford to have an appreciation of chivalry degenerate into a sense of entitlement.


#20

[quote="C_S_P_B, post:12, topic:222005"]
It is interesting to consider parallel observations. Excerpt from:

The HR "Wish List" and Courting "Wish List" are Inexorably Intertwined

It is links between two seemingly unrelated things that start to show you the odd and sometimes amazing psychological, financial, sociological, economic, etc., relationships that exist in the world and helps bring about your understanding of the world to a clearer fruition.

.................................

1 in 5 jobs go unfilled because they CAN'T FIND A QUALIFIED EMPLOYEE?????

And nearly HALF of the organizations in your firm lack qualified workers????

ALL WITH UNEMPLOYMENT AT 9.6%, let alone UNDEREMPLOYMENT IN THE HIGH TEENS?

Really? there's NO QUALIFIED CANDIDATES AMONG THE MILLIONS OF UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE OUT THERE.

Mayhaps I suggest there is a little bit of impossibility in both HR's and women's "requirement list" for potential suitors, be it for a job or a romantic suitor? That asking for a man who is 6'2" or taller, makes lots of money, loves his mother, wants to go to church, but is a bad boy in bed, but not unless you say so, who likes to write you poetry, votes liberal, but is a man's man is about as probable as finding the candidate with 10+ years uninterrupted and progressive experience with a masters in blah blah blah blah (PhD preferred, of course) and billions of certifications who is going to work for an average wage and travel 90% of the time and have no social life out of work?

But, no, no. That CAN"T be it! You keep on going. You keep waiting for that perfect candidate to come along who magically has 8 years of experience in a software that has only been on the market for 3. I mean, there's no WAY charlatans and con artists would ever get through your impenetrable filtering and screening process and just tell you what you want to hear just so they can get the job. I mean it's just like dating, right? Nobody has EVER passed through that shield of yours that was unqualified, and CERTAINLY nobody who was ever qualified did you ever shoot down only to regret later.

Of course.

That never happens.

[/quote]

The problem is that the people in HR need employees who actually show up on time on all the days they have committed to work, actually work when they get there, and won't be leaving for greener pastures before 2 years have passed. They want people who won't lie in order to use their sick leave every time the weather is nice out, so that maybe the employee might have some sick time accrued when they actually get sick. Many times, HR needs employees that have fully competent communication skills in both written and spoken English, which is not a given even among 3rd-generation American high school graduates. Even though the number of high school graduates who lack basic skills is very high, the requirements that must be placed on employees in order to conform to regulations only keeps increasing.

People in HR and people interested in marriage can be totally unrealistic, this is true, but there are also a lot of impossibly bad applicants out there.

It is expensive to train employees, and if an employee is disappointing, it is very hard to get rid of him or her. Likewise, this world is full of people who a) hardly have the maturity to enter into a valid marriage, b) can't be trusted to use that maturity to stick in there for the lifetime of the marriage, or c) make that lifetime seem very very long for the person stuck sticking in there with them. I don't blame employers, landlords, or potential spouses for being very circumspect. The ramifications of making a poor choice are just too serious.

Having said that, anyone looking for a great employee or a great spouse has to ask themselves this: Why would this great rare person choose you? It takes a good one to catch a good one. If you (or your organization) don't have higher standards for yourself than for the person you are seeking, well: Good luck, but don't hold your breath. Your assessment of your qualifications is probably higher than anyone else's. (This is elementary human nature.)

A question the OP might ask in light of her admission that she is "no Immaculate Conception." That could mean a lot of things, from being humble enough to admit her imperfections to having a lot of past "mistakes" of a magnitude that would disqualify applicants coming to her. So OP: check the "wish lists" being posted by picky Catholic men, and ask: Would I pass muster with a guy with standards as high as mine? If so, be patient. If not, you have your work cut out for you, if you're going to reach your goal.


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