Step up! Step up! TLM vs NO

**Step up! Step up! The ULTIMATE TLM vs. NO thread. **

Because I have nothing better to do, and because this issue is constantly rehashed on the boards, I’ve created this thread. Want to gripe about the ‘New’ Mass and extol the virtues the ‘old’? Do it here. Want to gripe about the ‘Old’ Mass and praise the new. Do it here.

Think of this thread as the Patrologia Latina of such threads. Instead of repeating the same argument ad nauseum in different threads, just mention ‘Refer Post 3, Argument 5’ or ‘Refer post 4, Tangent 2, Counter Argument 3’. This thread can enable you to speak your mind on:

Does Trent anathemize the vernacular or the non-silent Canon?
Quo Primum and the applications of Ecclesia DeiDoes the Novus Ordo express the fullness of Catholic doctrine?
Vocations, piety and the fruits of the Mass
Novus Ordo? A Protestant Plot!
The Vernacular- Foundation for the Future or Destruction of the Past?
A Study on Personal Preference and attendance at the Sacrifice of the Mass
God oriented or man centered?
Give me the TLM/NO or give me death!!

Should posters wish to advertise their opinions beforehand so that others not aware of the intricacy of the forum and the usual affiliations can read their posts with a biased mind, kindly pick a number from 1 to 10.
1 representing the ‘Up NO! Long live Vatican II! Down with grandfather methods of worship’
10 representing ‘Long live the TLM, sustaining many saints that could not be changed! Woe the travesty that has befallen us and the foolishness of the modern mindset in succumbing! Is our Holy Mother the Church perilously close to apostasy?

Who is the brave soul who will make the first post and go down in the history of the Forums as having initiated the greatest thread of all time, this testament to the young, the uninformed, the future forum members, of this intricate controversy?

Let the games begin!

P.S. for those who wish to twack others on the head with them, here are some useful links

The Vatican website
Documents of the Second OEcumenical Council of the Vatican
Canons and decrees of the Holy and Oecumenical Council of Trent
Papal Encyclicals. (direct link to Quo Primum)
The Order of the Mass of 1962
The Order of the Mass of 1970
The Baltimore Catechism
The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Catechism of Trent
Catechism of St. Pius X
The Catholic Encyclopedia
A goodly selection of the Fathers (just in case)

Well I’ll step up - not to express an opinion on TLM v NO, but just to say, in the immortal words of Shakespeare’s Henry V - ‘Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war’, or more simply ‘WHAT THE HECK DO YA THINK YA DOIN’???’ :bigyikes:

I agree.–:eek:

Pope Pius X: “Do not allow yourselves to be deceived by the cunning statements of those who persistently claim to wish to be with the Church, to love the Church, to fight so that people do not leave Her…But judge them by their works. If they despise the shepherds of the Church and even the Pope, if they attempt all means of evading their authority in order to elude their directives and judgements…, then about which Church do these men mean to speak? Certainly not about that established on the foundations of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ Himself as the cornerstone.” (Papal Speech, 1909)

Pope Pius IX: “those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the…Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff,…cannot obtain eternal salvation.” (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863)

Cardinal John Henry Newman: “I say with Cardinal Bellarmine whether the Pope be infallible or not in any pronouncement, anyhow he is to be obeyed. No good can come from disobedience. His facts and his warnings may be all wrong; his deliberations may have been biased. He may have been misled. Imperiousness and craft, tyranny and cruelty, may be patent in the conduct of his advisers and instruments. But when he speaks formally and authoritatively he speaks as our Lord would have him speak, and all those imperfections and sins of individuals are overruled for that result which our Lord intends (just as the action of the wicked and of enemies to the Church are overruled) and therefore the Pope’s word stands, and a blessing goes with obedience to it, and no blessing with disobedience.” (The Oratory, Nov. 10, 1867)

Pope Paul VI: “The reform which is about to be brought into being is therefore a response to an authoritative mandate from the Church. It is an act of obedience. It is an act of coherence of the Church with herself. It is a step forward for her authentic tradition. It is a demonstration of fidelity and vitality, to which we all must give prompt assent.” (General Audience, November 19, 1969)

Council of Trent, Session 21, Chapter II: ‘It furthermore declares that this power has ever been in the Church: that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, it may ordain, or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circumstances, times, and places.’

Pope Pius XII: 49. From time immemorial the ecclesiastical hierarchy…has not been slow - keeping the substance of the Mass and sacraments carefully intact - to modify what it deemed not altogether fitting…

  1. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circumstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized.
  1. …the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.(Mediator Dei, 1947 49,50,58 [emphasis added])

:slight_smile: Vivat Papa!

Come, come gentlemen (and lady)- I am merely releasing the latent forum beast that rears its head every now and then.

I count no less that FIVE threads on the topic on the first page alone with one currently devolved into dicussing the merits and valdity of religious freedom.

Perhaps if everyone finishes voicing their sundry and manifold opinions on this thread there will be no further cause to open others.

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