God brings good from evil. That doesn’t make evil okay.
Yeah, it was. It was a direct order from God that they both chose to disobey, fully knowing what they were doing and fully consenting to it. They committed mortal sin. That’s evil.
Wrong. God told them specifically not to do what they did.
Also wrong. God told them that eating the fruit would make them die.
They seriously need to come up with a new word for how wrong this statement is. We are nowhere close to where God wants us to be! We fornicate, masturbate, lust, envy, take pride, fight wars, hoard money, commit sins as a society and a world daily. We’ve missed the mark tremendously.
But one doesn’t truly know all that disobedience entails, or what death is, until one experiences it. Only then do the warnings really have meaning. We now know what Adam and Eve couldn’t possibly have known. We know the suffering that evil causes. We know the consequences. We know what they didn’t. We are the ones who truly have a choice.
You think that because you’re not perfect, that you’re not what God wants you to be. That perhaps He thinks less of you. But you’re not supposed to be perfect. And if you’re not supposed to be perfect, then what are you supposed to be?
You’re supposed to be a child.
Just because they didn’t experience the consequence of their actions doesn’t mean they have no culpability. A child that burns their hand on an iron despite their parent’s warnings is just as guilty as one who has burned themselves before. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and that’s all you need to know. They separated their will from God’s and suffered the consequences.
I know i’m not supposed to be perfect. But i’m not supposed to be a habitual, unrepentant sinner.
The Church does proclaim the Felix Culpa!!
I’m just wondering, it seems many of your objections stem from a very Protestant, fundamental, Sol"o" Scriptura version of Christianity.
Perhaps take some time to explore Catholicism in depth?
There’s the Felix Culpa, and then there’s “If I had the chance I’d do it again”.
Saying people send themselves to hell is like saying a woman gave herself a beating because she didn’t have dinner ready when her abusive husband came home. it’s absolutely absurd. Christianity wrote itself into a corner with this god is both omnipotent and perfectly good line of thinking.
The early religious societies (like the greeks) didn’t really have this ‘why does my god allow bad things’ issue because they knew their gods were fickle and a tad crazy. If you didn’t respect Zeus, he might turn into a goose and seduce your wife. If you didn’t give offerings to Poseidon before a long boat journey, he’d send a storm to sink your ship. It was much more of a “keep the dangerous people happy” approach, which, in my opinion, makes their view a lot more consistent with the world around us than the christian god
Because forcing someone to love you and spend literally eternity with you is not abusive?
Zeus seduced basically anything with a skirt, regardless of how much that woman’s husband “respected” him.
Why does God have to be like the world?
Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says.
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza, Page 119.
A sufficient grace has an operating effect only (empowering the will to act),
whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect (applying the will to act).
When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).
If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza, Page 113.
However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin. End quote.
God designed, decreed and directed the event of the “fall,” for the benefit of the entire human race.
God also designed the event of our corruption down to the minutest degree, He decreed our corruption from all eternity and He himself corrupted us for the reason to convert our sins into good and to make us saints. – Please keep in mind, God designed/ planned and directs EVERY EVENT in the universe to the final end for which the universe was created.
When God wills to permit us an act of sin He gives us a sufficient grace (we always reject sufficient grace) to resist sin for the reason for to convert our sins into good and to make us saints.
In the case, when God wills not to permit us an act of sin He provides us an efficacious grace and we every time infallible resist the temptation of sin.
As we see above, with the provisions of sufficient and efficacious graces God perfectly Governs/ controls the entire human race.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate. – Which is God’s Universal Salvific Will.
As we see above; God designed/ planned, predestined and orders every event in the universe includes evil and sins (includes the “fall” and our corruption for the reason to convert our sins into good – this is a process God makes us saints NOT hell inmates) to the final end for which the universe was created.
Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says;
The end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
Lucy - Your Catholic formation appears to have been very shaky, your decisions largely controlled by emotions, rather than study, research, prayer and reflection. As one or two have mentioned, God is always there for you, even if you reject His reality. Facts are facts, independent of what we may think. You are in my prayers that one day the ‘light of life’ will turn on in your mind, and that God may have your consent to work His wonders in your mind and soul. As much as He loves YOU, He cannot and will not force Himself on you - as a human being, you are imbued with freedom to accept Him or reject Him - the consequences of rejecting God/your loving Creator, are mostly dire. As I have said, you are in my prayers, that you will have your ‘Road to Damascus’ moment.
I think you’re close. What you’ve posted in this thread reminds me of the rich guy who asked Jesus what he must do to enter the Kingdom.
Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect,367 go, sell what you have and give to [the] poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Look, I’ll be frank with you. What you feel to be unfair, could be metaphysically necessary in the eyes of God. What I’m about to say may seem harsh, but your feelings have no bearing on any reality whatsoever. The fact of the matter is, these people have chosen to reject the teleology of God’s designs in nature, and have chosen to reject his grace as a result. We cannot take ourselves to beatitude, for it would be ontologically impossible for a lower creature in a hierarchical series to give what he does not have, namely grace. Think in an objective manner. Read Aquinas if you have to.
I’ve already done that. But not out of any wish to store up treasure in heaven, I have no desire for such things. I give, because my life, here and now, would seem empty if I didn’t.
That has always been my goal. Whether I have succeeded or not, is not for me to say. But I have succeeded in doing what my heart beseeched me to do, and for me, that is enough.
I was suggesting a deeper meaning. You’re still holding on to a lot of stuff. Your idea of God is not the loving father he’s revealed himself to be.
But you’re a smart guy. The important thing, imo, is to never stop seeking. We’ll never fully understand God, especially if we think we have him figured out.
I agree with you ServusDei1, we cannot give what we don’t have.
We have nothing what God did not given to us, as God’s creations, we are the way God created us.
Yet a lot of blame game goes around that what a grace rejecting terrible sinners we are.
Yes, at this moment of time by the will of God, we are terrible grace rejecting sinners, God created us to be grace rejecting sinners for good reason and the reason is, to convert our sins into good and by this process God to make us saints.
If God would willed He could created this world where are no pains, no sufferings, no human creation commit even a single act of sin. – Would be no blame game out of sheer ignorance that we are terrible grace rejecting sinners and “by free will” we choosing hell and we deserve everlasting sufferings in the pains of hell.
Yes, by free will we choose to commit acts of sins (NOT HELL) when God wills it for the reason to convert our sins into good, the good is in the process God makes us saints.
IT IS TIME TO LEARN
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
Catholic Encyclopedia Divine providence says;
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
As we see above, we cannot even do a smallest act of sin or good without God’s will, His permission and His cooperation by providing the powers of operation for us to commit an act of sin or an act of good.
You are absolutely right. To say otherwise would be heresy. All our choices are aided by his grace.
You are going through a tough time with your beliefs. St. Thérèse of Lisieux, considered one of the greatest saints of modern times, fought against the sin of despair during her agonizing death from tuberculosis. She wrote: “While I do not have the joy of faith, I am trying to carry out its works at least. I believe that I have made more acts of faith in this past year than all through my whole life.”
Take a look St. Thérèse’s autobiography “Story of a Soul.” It’s helped me a lot. I recommend the unexpurgated John Clarke translation.
This is quite an impressive wondering into who God is. Wow! A few thoughts on your few thoughts:
You’re 16. This is where you should be. Asking questions. Good job!
The teen years are there to become an individual, to ask the questions “Who am I, what do I think, what do I believe?” What makes you different than family, friends, others.
Having a mom who cares is a gift.
Honestly I agree with you. I learned about hell when I was in my teen years. I got mad at the idea. Since I knew very little about my faith, I slammed the door to God in anger. Who wants to go to hell? That wasn’t exactly motivating for me to do right or good.
I encourage you to go on a journey of learning to find out The truth about life, death, heaven and hell.
God gave man free will. We are truly free to choose what we want in this life. But within free will and life, comes great responsibility too. Freedom isn’t free. Just as we have laws on earth, God also created the law of Love. The Ten Commandments.
They can be summed up into two main commandments:
- Love God with all your heart, mind and soul
- Love your neighbor as yourself
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
- I encourage you to focus on what you do want out out of this life. This is very helpful.
- Ask Good questions.
- Love is greater than fear. Love, Faith and Understanding cast out fear.
- Why do we need faith? Why do we need God?
- If you look for the answers to this you will find them.
- We can communicate best with God through faith, dialogue & prayer.
- If you ask for the gift of faith, God will give it to you.
I encourage you:
Do’s and Dont’s
Do go on a journey of truth and understanding.
Don’t stop searching until you find the answers!
Do listen to good teachers, mentors and those who help you find the truth.
Do find out for yourself what you believe in.
Don’t let anyone or anything tell you what your thoughts or beliefs are especially if it takes you away from God and the truth.
Do - test everything, discern on everything to determine if it is good or bad.
Do - make good choices.
Do stand up for what you believe.
Do become a person of strong faith.
Do - choose truth, goodness, righteousness.
Do - become the best version of who you are in this life
Do - seek excellence in all you do.
Do - live the best life you can possible live - here and now!
Do read the bible to find out about who God is.
Do spend time with God when you are ready.
Do go on the journey & make it the adventure of a lifetime!
It only took me 29 years. I encourage you to take less time than that. The answers are awesome.
This is the best life ever. Why not enjoy every minute of every day as if it were the only time you have is right here, right now, this moment.
Cast fear aside and open the door to faith & courage. Be fearless in life & enjoy it.
Its the only one we have. Make it count!
Seek God in all things & you will find Him in all things.
You are off to a great start! Wow!
Good luck and God bless on your journey.
He is greater than i.