Straight answers sought about marriage/separation


#1

My husband and I have had a rocky marriage for many years. In the last two years we have been getting counselling from very competent catholic counsellors. We still have a long way to go.

The problem we often run into is that our counsellors are very reluctant to give straight answers. They fear that if they are too direct that they might scare one of us away. But that has left some problems we have festering for years. We do both want to make the marriage work, but sometimes I think that this type of advice we get is dragging out our issues longer than they should. Maybe we just need staight up, down - yes, no type answers so we can get on with life.

So, I post here some of our long standing issues in the hopes of getting advice from a moral perspective. I (we) are both open to knowing what the real moral principles are in any of these questions.

  1. I have not been comfortable being in the same bed (or bedroom) with my husband for almost 2 years. He says he is O.K. with me refusing sex ( I think he really isn’t o.k. with it) but he says he is not O.K. in me demostrating to the children the depth of our problems by sleeping apart.

My spiritual advisor says that it is not a problem. His has said I should not sleep in the living room.

  1. Obedience. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions. I feel that if he obeyed the instruction for husbands to love your wives, he would not put me in positions of obeying on topics we don’t agree on.

Is there any practical application for either of these instructions. Any limits?

  1. My spiritual advisor, has said that it would be o.k. for me to ask for a separation, as I need a break from his presence. Some of my older kids also want him to leave, and don’t even talk to him anymore. He says that my advisor is “whacked out” and is “totally out of line” for giving such “extreme” advice since the priest has never even spoken with him and since there is no history of violence or threat thereof and since there is no affair or drinking or drugs or anything like that.

I think my advisor is wonderful and right and I think he truly loves the Lord.

What are the limits of when a person can seek separation?

  1. I have talked openly with my kids about my desire to separate from my husband. He is not happy about this, says that it is just making them more distant from him. Since they won’t talk to him, he cannot even “defend” himself. He feels he is being treated unfairly by my not being willing to present the children with his view of our situation. He says they would be better off without hearing any of this, even if they can see for themselves tha we have problems.

  2. One last thing. He once emailed a long note and several shorter ones to a lawyer who runs a marriage counselling service that I was interested in. He asked in each that his notes be kept confidential. She shared them with a business associate and he emailed them all to me. She says it was o.k. as email is not confidential and she had not agreed to keep them confidential. He was really upset and thinks she was totally out of line. Was she out of line or not?

Thanks


#2

[quote=olph]1) I have not been comfortable being in the same bed (or bedroom) with my husband for almost 2 years. He says he is O.K. with me refusing sex ( I think he really isn’t o.k. with it) but he says he is not O.K. in me demostrating to the children the depth of our problems by sleeping apart.

My spiritual advisor says that it is not a problem. His has said I should not sleep in the living room.

  1. Obedience. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions. I feel that if he obeyed the instruction for husbands to love your wives, he would not put me in positions of obeying on topics we don’t agree on.

Is there any practical application for either of these instructions. Any limits?

  1. My spiritual advisor, has said that it would be o.k. for me to ask for a separation, as I need a break from his presence. Some of my older kids also want him to leave, and don’t even talk to him anymore. He says that my advisor is “whacked out” and is “totally out of line” for giving such “extreme” advice since the priest has never even spoken with him and since there is no history of violence or threat thereof and since there is no affair or drinking or drugs or anything like that.

I think my advisor is wonderful and right and I think he truly loves the Lord.

What are the limits of when a person can seek separation?

  1. I have talked openly with my kids about my desire to separate from my husband. He is not happy about this, says that it is just making them more distant from him. Since they won’t talk to him, he cannot even “defend” himself. He feels he is being treated unfairly by my not being willing to present the children with his view of our situation. He says they would be better off without hearing any of this, even if they can see for themselves tha we have problems.

  2. One last thing. He once emailed a long note and several shorter ones to a lawyer who runs a marriage counselling service that I was interested in. He asked in each that his notes be kept confidential. She shared them with a business associate and he emailed them all to me. She says it was o.k. as email is not confidential and she had not agreed to keep them confidential. He was really upset and thinks she was totally out of line. Was she out of line or not?

Thanks
[/quote]

  1. Generally, it is not OK to withhold sex without a good reason. Never being in the mood is a problem in and of itself, and could indicate other medical problems. I’m not qualified to say much else.

  2. Your children should not see you disagree on issues of discipline and child-rearing. However, I have to agree that a loving husband would not put you in that awkward position. The responsibility to work through these differences lies with both of you, and it is not appropriate for him to expect you to roll over just because wives are supposed to be submissive. I suggest looking into Christopher West’s assessment of that verse. He mentions it on his 10 CD set Naked Without Shame from www.giftfoundation.com for under $5. It will be money well spent, I promise!

  3. Your husband is right. Give your kids enough credit to figure out what they need to know. I’d say they should know you are going to counseling to work things out, but nothing more unless they ask a direct question. And you especially shouldn’t give them a one-sided view.

  4. Totally out of line. If someone requests confidentiality and you do not intend to respect it, your only option is to delete the correspondence without reading it. I would not go to this counselor ever!


#3

it sounds like the two of you still have a long way to go with your counselling, I hope you stick with it.

you need sound pastoral counselling on the Christian meaning of wifely submission.

Based on my own pastoral experience, in situations similar to yours, it seems there is often an underlying jealously or resentment either about one party’s premarital sexual activity with exes, or due to one party’s insistence on ABC which reduces the other to feeling like nothing more than a sex object. The third problem that often emerges is that one partner has a contintuing addiction to masturbation and pornography.

These underlying issues must be addressed if counselling is to be successful. The trouble is, like you have observed, many secular counsellors refuse to tell the plain truth about the natural, normal effect of such behaviors on both parties, and insist that these things are normal, when in fact they are deadly poison for marriage.


#4

[quote=olph]1) I have not been comfortable being in the same bed (or bedroom) with my husband for almost 2 years.
[/quote]

Everytime you sleep on the couch, you send the message that you don’t love your husband. Your kids pick up on that.

  1. Obedience. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions.

This is a tough one. What does the bible really mean? Wives should be mind-numbed robots? You have no insight into child-rearing that may be valuable?

I don’t think so.

This is where the two of you have to work out your disagreements. A book “Fighting for Your Marriage” might be valuable here. I suggest you seek out a counselor who is familiar with it.

His role as husband does not mean “dictator”.

Personally, I feel that verse was based in a cultural tradition. It applies today that both spouses need to respect each other but not that the husband makes all the decisions.

  1. My spiritual advisor, has said that it would be o.k. for me to ask for a separation, Some of my older kids also want him to leave, and don’t even talk to him anymore.

I disagree with your spiritual advisor. Seperations don’t work. It gets you away from the problem and by doing so removes any urgency to solve the problem. That usually means the problems don’t get solved. Most seperations end in divorce for that reason.

  1. I have talked openly with my kids about my desire to separate from my husband. He is not happy about this, says that it is just making them more distant from him. Since they won’t talk to him, he cannot even “defend” himself.

This one is on you. You are sleeping on the couch. You are telling your kids you want to seperate. That isn’t “talking openly” that is recruiting. You have them on your side. It is not surprising your older ones aren’t talking to him. You have given them permission not to.

He shouldn’t need to defend himself. You should be showing support for him as a husband and (step?) father. (I’m assuming step-father as you said “my older kids”).

Your kids would be better off not hearing about it, even if they see the problems. What you should be saying is “there are some problems. We are working on them but I support my husband and he derseves respect”. It is not acceptable for them to refuse to talk to your husband.

This is where “fake it til you make it” comes in. You need to model that respect. You can start by getting off the couch and back in the bedroom. That would be a huge sign to your kids that your husband is respectable and that you love him (which is what kids really want to see). Second, stop telling them all your problems. That is what your counselor is for.

Telling them your difficulties also undermines your parental authority (not just your husband’s). By doing this, you are communicating that you are more of a peer than an authority to your kids. It isn’t healthy for any of you.

Back to defending himself to the kids. He shouldn’t be explaining his side to the kids for the same reasons you shouldn’t be doing so in the first place. The only way to fix this issue if for you to fix it.

  1. He once emailed a long note and several shorter ones to a lawyer who runs a marriage counselling service that I was interested in. He asked in each that his notes be kept confidential. She shared them with a business associate and he emailed them all to me. She says it was o.k. as email is not confidential and she had not agreed to keep them confidential.

The counselor seems to be claiming that email is inherently not confidential but that if he had written a letter or made comments on the phone, it would be. That is not the case. Any communication with a counselor is confidential.

The only way she might be able to justify it would be to claim she was not acting as a counselor when she received the email. That doesn’t seem to be the case as she was basing her claim on the method of communication. Sounds like an integrity problem to me .

continued…


#5

As puzzleannie said, you have a long way to go in counseling but you can get a healthy marriage. There is a positive here. You have well-defined problems. That is a major step in fixing them. Too many people just leave it as “he’s a jerk” which isn’t a problem, its an opinion. Opinions are hard to change. When you say, he’s a jerk because…" you have a place to start. After the issue that follows “because” is fixed, that person no longer is a jerk :).

Keep working. You both sound like you do want to resolve it. Demonstrate respect for your husband to your kids. You’ll be amazed at how that helps the atmosphere in your house. It will help you too.

Finally, you post seems to inrdicate that you two are seeing different counselors. You should be seeing the same counselor who specializes in marriage counseling and will be direct like you mention. A counselor who won’t challenge you is not doing you a service. Look until you find one.


#6

Would your husband be open to attending Retrouvaille?
retrouvaille.org/

IMHO, all marriages need working on, I too have my own issues and have been working on getting DH to go to counseling or Retrouvaille or something for the last 2 years. However we have our ups and downs, and life goes on. And kids sure do pick up on everything, my DS too gets very upset when DH & I are having a fight or problem.
It is great that you are both in counselling and trying to work things out.
Will say a prayer for you.


#7

I think Gwyn has given you some wonderful advice.

I also think it is wrong for either you or your husband to take one or two verses out of Holy Scripture and use them to prove a point or support a position.

While scripture does speak to wives submitting to their husbands, it also speaks to husbands loving their wives in the same way as Jesus loves HIS bride, the Holy Mother Church. And how does Jesus love His bride?

  1. He protects her
  2. he honors her
  3. he provides for her
  4. he obeys her (yes! that is in scripture! whatever she binds on earth He binds in heaven, remember?)
  5. he guides her
  6. He sacrifices for her
  7. He ultimately DIED for her

So, if one goes only by scripture, then while a wife needs only to submit to her husband then a husband has a lot more to do for his wife…

You don’t really provide much information as to why your husband makes your uncomfortable, why your children no longer have respect for their father, why he has been displaced in his own home. I think Gwyn has provided you with an excellent alternative to simply ‘taking a break’. You both may need to put your ‘big kid pants on’, grow up a little and stop pointing fingers at each other. Instead, remember that for Catholics marriage is a covenant…not a contract. Get to work and put Christ back in the center of your home.


#8

I think it would be healthier for the marriage if you both slept in the same bedroom, as long as it is understood that there will be no sexual contact until you are both consenting. To me, sex is a show of love for your life partner. It is more than just “something else” that married couples “must” do because they are married.

On the obedience, I think that you and your husband should sit down and talk outside of an argument on what he expects from you and what you expect from him in all areas. You won’t agree on everything, but you need to compromise. You need to give a little and he needs to give a little. You both need to repect each other’s opinions, wishes, and concerns for one another. Neither one of you will be right. It’s not about being right, it’s about having a loving, christian relationship for the children and for yourselves.

I think it is unfair that you speak of your marital problems with your children. Marital problems are between the two people who are married, and should stay that way. The more people you involve in the problems, the bigger they get. And what if you and your husband do make up and come to an agreement? Everyone else you have involved (including your children) won’t know that you have made up and will still harbor ill feelings toward your spouse, which in turn will cause just one more problem once you do make up.

And I think the lawyer was out of line. She was asked to keep the letters confidential for a reason and should have kept it that way.

I think that you and your husband should seek advice from one counselor and you should do it together, that way the counselor can hear both of your sides and can give you good solid advice. You and him should sit down with a list of counselors and pick one together - one that you can BOTH agree on and make a promise to each other that what the counselor says goes - and no more back and forth.

I hope my advice is helpful. My husband and I have been married for 6 1/2 years and alot of people tell us that we seem like we have been married for 25 years. It has alot to do with respect and tolerance. I hope this helps!!! :wink:


#9

Thanks for the comments. They are refreshing - even if I don’t like some of them.

My husband has been asking for us to go to Retrouvaille for over a year. I am not comfortable being alone with him. He offered for us to take separate cars, stay in separate rooms and that I could leave at any time without explanation. That is all fine and good. But, I resent him pressuring me on the matter, and I just am not comfortable with it.


#10

[font=Verdana]This is such a sensitive issue I hesitate to weigh in . . . there are so many factors and I’m not qualified to judge you. I think this is probably why your counselors backed away from straight answers, because there are no universal straight answers. Even in the church, there are exceptions to accepted rules in extreme cases. For example, marriage is sacred and permanent but the church allows annulments in extreme cases.

I was driven to write because I think some of these posters are being too hard on you. You are in individual endowed with a soul from God. You have immense value and dignity. You are not a slave to be disrespected by your husband. You are bound by your marriage vows to love him, that is to chose the act in his best interest. This does not mean obeying his every whim. You must use your intellect to discern what is godly service to your husband and what is not.

I do not believe you have to sleep in intimate quarters with someone you are uncomfortable with. I totally disagree with everyone who said otherwise. Separate bedrooms are an excellent option given that many couples choose separate rooms for non-romatantic reasons.

Ultimately, you are responsible to set a good example for your children. This means standing up for your personal dignity just as much as it means loving your husband. You are in a tough situation and the spotlight is on you. If you had a daughter and she was married to a man like your husband, how would you want her to react? If you have any daughters, you are setting patterns that they will repeat later in life.

And finally, only a fool divulges confidential information before getting assurances of confidentiality. Legally and intellectually if no assurance was given, the woman was free to release your husband’s secret. Simple manners may have directed her to act differently though and I’d be careful of sharing any personal information with that particular woman in the future!

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#11

[quote=olph]The problem we often run into is that our counsellors are very reluctant to give straight answers. They fear that if they are too direct that they might scare one of us away.
[/quote]

The problem is you expect the counselors to solve your problems and that is not their role. They are there to guide the two of you to work out your problems yourself…that’s why you won’t get straight answers. They are not the authority over your marriage…you and your huband own that and it is up to the two of you, through guided communication, to answer your own questions and find the solutions which work best for the two of you. It’s not a matter of them fearing one of you will be frightened away.

Therapy, like the Mass, and most things in life, really, is as good and effective as the effort and honesty you put into it. If you really want straight answers, then start asking straight questions and when the therapist responds with more questions directed at you, answer it directly, don’t hem and haw, don’t hold back, don’t dress the answer up or down or dance around it. You’ll save yourself a lot of time, money and grief.

The answers you seek are within you and your husband. Retrouvaille really is the place for you two at this juncture though I see you’re still resistent about that.

It sounds on the surface as though you seek and value spiritual counsel from those who tell you what you want to hear while disregarding that which you do not. I hope this really isn’t the case.

It kind of sounds like you don’t really want this marriage to work so you’re going through the motions until someone finally tells you it’s ok to leave. What about Retrouvaille - the program, not the logistics - are you opposed to at this juncture in your relationship?


#12

[quote=olph]My husband and I have had a rocky marriage for many years. In the last two years we have been getting counselling from very competent catholic counsellors. We still have a long way to go.

The problem we often run into is that our counsellors are very reluctant to give straight answers. They fear that if they are too direct that they might scare one of us away. But that has left some problems we have festering for years. We do both want to make the marriage work, but sometimes I think that this type of advice we get is dragging out our issues longer than they should. Maybe we just need staight up, down - yes, no type answers so we can get on with life.

So, I post here some of our long standing issues in the hopes of getting advice from a moral perspective. I (we) are both open to knowing what the real moral principles are in any of these questions.

  1. I have not been comfortable being in the same bed (or bedroom) with my husband for almost 2 years. He says he is O.K. with me refusing sex ( I think he really isn’t o.k. with it) but he says he is not O.K. in me demostrating to the children the depth of our problems by sleeping apart.

My spiritual advisor says that it is not a problem. His has said I should not sleep in the living room.

  1. Obedience. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions. I feel that if he obeyed the instruction for husbands to love your wives, he would not put me in positions of obeying on topics we don’t agree on.

Is there any practical application for either of these instructions. Any limits?

  1. My spiritual advisor, has said that it would be o.k. for me to ask for a separation, as I need a break from his presence. Some of my older kids also want him to leave, and don’t even talk to him anymore. He says that my advisor is “whacked out” and is “totally out of line” for giving such “extreme” advice since the priest has never even spoken with him and since there is no history of violence or threat thereof and since there is no affair or drinking or drugs or anything like that.

I think my advisor is wonderful and right and I think he truly loves the Lord.

What are the limits of when a person can seek separation?

  1. I have talked openly with my kids about my desire to separate from my husband. He is not happy about this, says that it is just making them more distant from him. Since they won’t talk to him, he cannot even “defend” himself. He feels he is being treated unfairly by my not being willing to present the children with his view of our situation. He says they would be better off without hearing any of this, even if they can see for themselves tha we have problems.

  2. One last thing. He once emailed a long note and several shorter ones to a lawyer who runs a marriage counselling service that I was interested in. He asked in each that his notes be kept confidential. She shared them with a business associate and he emailed them all to me. She says it was o.k. as email is not confidential and she had not agreed to keep them confidential. He was really upset and thinks she was totally out of line. Was she out of line or not?

Thanks
[/quote]

I would ask, is your marriage one in which abuse and/or adultery is involved? If not, you need to work it out at all costs. If it is, work it out anyway! Find someone who will have the guts to speak right and wrong! And hold you both accountable to your sins. GO to adoration and confession together. And get others (in your real life) ----praying for you. There is always hope!!! Don’t forget it! Your children need to see it too. I would say move back in the bedroom, and at least try some cuddling at night. It feels good, even in the midst of turmoil. I know. Been there. It just might help too!!!

Blessings~


#13

[quote=olph]Thanks for the comments. They are refreshing - even if I don’t like some of them.

My husband has been asking for us to go to Retrouvaille for over a year. I am not comfortable being alone with him. He offered for us to take separate cars, stay in separate rooms and that I could leave at any time without explanation. That is all fine and good. But, I resent him pressuring me on the matter, and I just am not comfortable with it.
[/quote]

Tough.

This is the part where you put your ‘feelings’ aside and put on your big girl pants and start thinking about what is truly good for your children and your marriage…not use your FEELINGS to make decisions. If you use your FEELINGS in order to run your life then no wonder you are in trouble, you are going to your kids with your adult problems and you are sleeping on the couch. For heavens sakes, woman. You have kids. You have a husband and from what you have just said you have a husband who has just about bent over backwards to give you what you want…what are you really afraid of…now go to Retrouvaille, show your children what a real woman is made of and walk with grace, dignity and your head held high. YOU DESERVE IT…:dancing:


#14

[quote=LSK]Tough.

This is the part where you put your ‘feelings’ aside and put on your big girl pants and start thinking about what is truly good for your children and your marriage…not use your FEELINGS to make decisions. If you use your FEELINGS in order to run your life then no wonder you are in trouble, you are going to your kids with your adult problems and you are sleeping on the couch. For heavens sakes, woman. You have kids. You have a husband and from what you have just said you have a husband who has just about bent over backwards to give you what you want…what are you really afraid of…now go to Retrouvaille, show your children what a real woman is made of and walk with grace, dignity and your head held high. YOU DESERVE IT…:dancing:
[/quote]

LSK: Sometimes friend, your posts are so hard and un-compasionate—I guess you have learned thru some very hard experiences in your life to be this way in order to survive, right? But I must say, you are right most the time, and at times we certainly need to hear what you are saying!:slight_smile: I would also like to say to you LSK–“soften up” and let your womanly feminine side show, now and then, anyway.


#15

Since you are not disputing your husbands claim that there is no history of abuse or related problems, a competent counselor should not be advising separation without hearing both sides of the story, period. Add in your husband’s experience with the totally unprofessional breach of confidentiality by the counseling service you were interested in, and he has well founded reasons to question the type of the advise you are seeking out and to insist on more input on who you are seeking advise from.

I would strongly suggest starting fresh with a new counselor (selected with the agreement and input of your husband) who will work with you on meeting a series of short-term goals in learning the coping skills to handle living as a married woman. Competent counseling should be concerned first and forempost with getting the patient back to “normal” function - in your case, as a married woman who says she wants her marriage to work, treatment goals should resemble stepping thorugh getting you able to handle sharing a car ride, a retreat, a bedroom, a bed, and a physical bond with your husband. A competent counselor will also want to hear from family members (e.g. your husband) about how effective the current tack is and what other issues they see, as well as reviewing the course of treatment every 6-8 weeks to change tacks as necessary to continue measurable progress towards your goals. If your new counselor doesn’t have you sharing a bed with your husband within 6-8 months and doesn’t have an immediate (4-6 week) timeframe for getting you there at that point, I’d go to yet another until you find someone who will work with you aggressively to get you back to something resembling “normal” functionality in your chosen lifestyle.

Check out these link for more info on what “good” therapy should resemble in your situation.
helping.apa.org/articles/article.php?id=52
helping.apa.org/articles/article.php?id=51
helping.apa.org/articles/article.php?id=46

Your husband “pressuring” you to go to Retrouvaille is a legitimate of his role as spiritual leader of your household. Your advisor should have been backing your husband’s request (especially considering the extraordinary offers of lattitute) that both of you attend that retreat. To that extent, refusal of your husbands request is clear-cut disobedience on your part, as the request is indisputably a request made out of love for you and respect for the marriage bond. This is a legitimate attempt at guidance on his part, not a type of request to be refused without a grave reason. Based on what you’ve shared so far, I cannot fathom a reason to justify continued refusal to attend.

I would also agree with the other posters that speaking openly with your kids about your desires to separate and the visible signs of a de-facto physical separation from your husband amount to recruitment of your children in side-taking. From there, I’d have to wonder what exactly is the nature of your disagreements on child-rearing, considering you are apparently quite comfortable with unilaterally going forward on how you involve your kids in your marriage despite your husband’s very legitimate criticisms of those decisions on your part. Your husband shouldn’t have had to tell you those actions were inappropriate, and your spiritual advisor should have been objecting as well.

Quite frankly, it sounds like your spiritual advisor does not respect the sacrament of marriage, either in the importance of the marriage bond or the roles of husband and wife in the family, and is advising you to have your cake and eat it too (by encouraging you in both refusing sex and declining other reasonable requests). Do you whole family a favor an cut off all contact with that advisor as a first step, then make a reservation for the next available Retrouvaille, and in the meantime start working out a list of potential counselors to interview.


#16

[quote=LSK]go to Retrouvaille, show your children what a real woman is made of and walk with grace, dignity and your head held high. YOU DESERVE IT…:dancing:
[/quote]

Your children deserve a true authentic female role model who defends and protects the Sacrament of marriage…one who shows by example the extent one should take out of love and commitment to make a marriage work with the grace of God.


#17

[quote=sparkle]LSK: Sometimes friend, your posts are so hard and un-compasionate—I guess you have learned thru some very hard experiences in your life to be this way in order to survive, right? But I must say, you are right most the time, and at times we certainly need to hear what you are saying!:slight_smile: I would also like to say to you LSK–“soften up” and let your womanly feminine side show, now and then, anyway.
[/quote]

I did not ask you for any comments on me or my feminine side and I would appreciate it if you kept your opinions about me to yourself. Thank you.


#18

I remain puzzled. You mention that you have been uncomfortable being with your husband for about two years. Yet you have older children, so perhaps there may have been something that changed. Can you share what changed, so that it is more clear what is going on?

If there are certain problems going on, counseling as a couple may not work well, at least not without addressing those issues.

Being afraid to be in the same car with your husband seems to indicate some important problem or dynamic going on. So I feel that I, at least, can’t advise you well because I don’t have a complete feel for what is really going on.

What is underlying your desire for a respite or “break” from your husband? I see that you are very unhappy, though, even though I don’t yet understand why!:blessyou:


#19

[quote=LSK]I did not ask you for any comments on me or my feminine side and I would appreciate it if you kept your opinions about me to yourself. Thank you.
[/quote]

Nor did anyone on here ask for any opinions on ourselves either. But we all give them on this forum, nonetheless, in Love hopefully. Please know LSK it is only out of Love we offer it.:slight_smile:

May God Bless~~


#20

Notice:

Let’s keep it above the belt, or the thread will be closed. Please extend the maximum amount of charity possible, and remember that where two or more of us are gathered in His name, He is in our midst; I would ask that we all remember to act like it.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary


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