Strange Comment by Pope Benedict XVI


#1

COLOGNE, Germany (CNS) – Meeting with Protestant and Orthodox leaders in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI pledged to move ecumenism forward during his pontificate, saying he realized that many Christians expect “concrete steps to bring us closer together.” While he reaffirmed the church’s belief that unity already subsists in the Catholic Church, the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline. The model should be “unity in multiplicity and multiplicity in unity,” the pope told some 30 non-Catholic representatives in Cologne Aug. 19. The cordial, 30-minute encounter took place in the Catholic cardinal’s residence in the city center, where the pope was residing during his four-day stay.

The above is from CNS. Now, I know we don’t need uniformity in Liturgy (we have several Catholic rites),
but no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE??? No uniformity in Theology??? We can have unity WITHOUT doctrinal conversion??? Does this sound wacky to anybody else?
Love, Jaypeeto2


#2

[quote=Jaypeeto2]COLOGNE, Germany (CNS) – Meeting with Protestant and Orthodox leaders in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI pledged to move ecumenism forward during his pontificate, saying he realized that many Christians expect “concrete steps to bring us closer together.” While he reaffirmed the church’s belief that unity already subsists in the Catholic Church, the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline. The model should be “unity in multiplicity and multiplicity in unity,” the pope told some 30 non-Catholic representatives in Cologne Aug. 19. The cordial, 30-minute encounter took place in the Catholic cardinal’s residence in the city center, where the pope was residing during his four-day stay.

The above is from CNS. Now, I know we don’t need uniformity in Liturgy (we have several Catholic rites),
but no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE??? No uniformity in Theology??? We can have unity WITHOUT doctrinal conversion??? Does this sound wacky to anybody else?
Love, Jaypeeto2
[/quote]

I’d have to read the Holy Father’s comments in their entirety before I could offer comment. When it comes to the Church, I trust the media’s coverage about as far as I could heave Rosie O’Donnel across a football field.


#3

[quote=Jaypeeto2]COLOGNE, Germany (CNS) – Meeting with Protestant and Orthodox leaders in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI pledged to move ecumenism forward during his pontificate, saying he realized that many Christians expect “concrete steps to bring us closer together.” While he reaffirmed the church’s belief that unity already subsists in the Catholic Church, the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline. The model should be “unity in multiplicity and multiplicity in unity,” the pope told some 30 non-Catholic representatives in Cologne Aug. 19. The cordial, 30-minute encounter took place in the Catholic cardinal’s residence in the city center, where the pope was residing during his four-day stay.

The above is from CNS. Now, I know we don’t need uniformity in Liturgy (we have several Catholic rites),
but no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE??? No uniformity in Theology??? We can have unity WITHOUT doctrinal conversion??? Does this sound wacky to anybody else?
Love, Jaypeeto2
[/quote]

Wherever did he say uniformity in doctrine wasn’t necessary? I see theology, liturgy and discipline…


#4

[quote=Jaypeeto2]COLOGNE, Germany (CNS) – Meeting with Protestant and Orthodox leaders in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI pledged to move ecumenism forward during his pontificate, saying he realized that many Christians expect “concrete steps to bring us closer together.” While he reaffirmed the church’s belief that unity already subsists in the Catholic Church, the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline. The model should be “unity in multiplicity and multiplicity in unity,” the pope told some 30 non-Catholic representatives in Cologne Aug. 19. The cordial, 30-minute encounter took place in the Catholic cardinal’s residence in the city center, where the pope was residing during his four-day stay.

The above is from CNS. Now, I know we don’t need uniformity in Liturgy (we have several Catholic rites),
but no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE??? No uniformity in Theology??? We can have unity WITHOUT doctrinal conversion??? Does this sound wacky to anybody else?
Love, Jaypeeto2
[/quote]

I suppose before commenting we should read the actual words of the Pope. But to say that union or communion does not necessarly mean uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline is accurate.

I don’t see where it says “no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE”?


#5

Wouldn’t THEOLOGY cover Doctrine??
Jaypeeto2


#6

Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (1982), pp. 216-217: “Patriarch Athenagoras [the non-Catholic, schismatic Patriarch] spoke even more strongly when he greeted the Pope [Paul VI] in Phanar: ‘Against all expectation, the bishop of Rome is among us, the first among us in honor, ‘he who presides in love’. It is clear that, in saying this, the Patriarch [the non-Catholic, schismatic Patriarch] did not abandon the claims of the Eastern Churches or acknowledge the primacy of the west. Rather, he stated plainly what the East understood as the order, the rank and title, of the equal bishops in the Church – and it would be worth our while to consider whether this archaic confession, which has nothing to do with the ‘primacy of jurisdiction’ but confesses a primacy of ‘honor’ and agape, might not be recognized as a formula that adequately reflects the position that Rome occupies in the Church – ‘holy courage’ requires that prudence be combined with ‘audacity’

Now, am I nuts or doesn’t this sound a little offbeat also?
Love, Jaypeeto2


#7

[quote=Jaypeeto2]Wouldn’t THEOLOGY cover Doctrine??
Jaypeeto2
[/quote]

No. We currently have 23 other Eastern Churches in communion with Rome some of which have different theology but all agree with Rome in Doctrine.


#8

It’s this unity-in-multiplicity thing that has me confused.
It would seem he is including the Protestant churches as well.
How can we have unity (even in “multiplicity”) without unity in Doctrine? The above quote from Principles of Catholic Theology shows that the Holy Father entertains the notion that a mere primacy of honor “adequately reflects” the rightful role of the pope, which is of course contradictory to Vatican I’s solemn definition. Personally, I find Benedict’s writings confusing (except for his book on the Eucharist, which I enjoyed).
Love, Jaypeeto2


#9

[quote=Jaypeeto2] Personally, I find Benedict’s writings confusing

[/quote]

Hi Jay,

I can offer one small word of advice: :slight_smile: . Be wary of gleaning any information about the Holy Father from Peter Dimond, OSB, and avowed sedevacantist.

That quote from Ratzinger that you used above was taken from his article at mostholyfamilymonastery.com/BenedictXVI’sastoundingheresies.html which lists “30 amazing and outstanding heresies of Benedict XVI”.

He is taking the quotes out of context and adding editorial content in order to make a point, a schismatic point at that.

Be wary!

VC


#10

I also have Ratzinger’s writings, and the quote I quoted is not out of context. I wish I had a scanner, I’d scan the page in myself.
Love, Jaypeeto2


#11

Looks ok to me.

What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians? The Catholic Church has as her goal the full visible unity of the disciples of Christ, as defined by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its various documents (cf. Lumen Gentium, 8, 13; Unitatis Redintegratio, 2, 4, etc.). This unity subsists, we are convinced, in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, 4). This does not, however, mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity: in my Homily for the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul on 29 June last, I insisted that full unity and full catholicity go together.

wjt2005.de/index.php?id=1893&backPID=1373&tt_news=1085
5th paragraph


#12

Hi Jay,

I unfortunately *don’t *have the entire text in front of me, so it would be hard to comment on it, really. What I meant by “out of context” is that the passage is isolated from the whole of Pope Benedict’s thought. Since I don’t have the book, I am content in resting in the safe assumption that the Holy Father doesn’t deny the papacy. :wink: So it is encumbant on us to try to understand the nuances in his thought in such a way to correspond to authentic Church teaching – in other words, the Holy Father deserves (more than most do!) the benefit of the doubt. :thumbsup:

Check out this website crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/386/Catholic_Questions___Answers.html
and scroll down for this exact question, using this exact quote. The website provides a little bit more of the text and even links to a thread on THIS forum which discusses it too.

VC


#13

Thanks for the link. I still can’t agree that Rome “need not ask for more.” If Vatican I defined that all must believe in the Pope’s Jurdisdiction and even claimed as it did that this jurisdiction has been known and believed in all ages (that would include the first millenium), then the EOs would have to accept it in order to be in full communion.
Love,Jaypeeto2


#14

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]No. We currently have 23 other Eastern Churches in communion with Rome some of which have different theology but all agree with Rome in Doctrine.
[/quote]

Can anyone actually show what the different theologies in these Eastern Churches are, and how they can have different theology but same doctrine as Rome.

not sure if the link has been posted to benedicts Ecumenical meeting Speech at World YOuth Day, but here it is from the vatican.


#15

[quote=JKirkLVNV]I’d have to read the Holy Father’s comments in their entirety before I could offer comment. When it comes to the Church, I trust the media’s coverage about as far as I could heave Rosie O’Donnel across a football field.
[/quote]

Well, you can…Can’t you? :frowning: I would have to agree this idea. If someone could get the whole text for me, but I doubt that this was meant the way it sound. The media Might possibly (though I can’t garrente it) scewing what he said to sound bad.


#16

[quote=Jaypeeto2] the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline.
[/quote]

Just a guess, but it might mean that it is acceptable for the East and West to have diferent ways of expressing the same basic truths, so that it is not necessary for the East to embrace the Scholastic theological method.


#17

[quote=Jaypeeto2]COLOGNE, Germany (CNS) – Meeting with Protestant and Orthodox leaders in Germany, Pope Benedict XVI pledged to move ecumenism forward during his pontificate, saying he realized that many Christians expect “concrete steps to bring us closer together.” While he reaffirmed the church’s belief that unity already subsists in the Catholic Church, the pope said that does not mean eventual communion must bring uniformity in theology, liturgy and discipline. The model should be “unity in multiplicity and multiplicity in unity,” the pope told some 30 non-Catholic representatives in Cologne Aug. 19. The cordial, 30-minute encounter took place in the Catholic cardinal’s residence in the city center, where the pope was residing during his four-day stay.

The above is from CNS. Now, I know we don’t need uniformity in Liturgy (we have several Catholic rites),
but no uniformity is necessary in DOCTRINE??? No uniformity in Theology??? We can have unity WITHOUT doctrinal conversion??? Does this sound wacky to anybody else?
Love, Jaypeeto2
[/quote]

Can I ask where exactly in your quote or indeed in the entire speech does it state that there is no need for uniformity in Doctrine?

Later in the same speech pope Benedict spoke about dialogue without compromise to the truth. he said ***"***We all know there are numerous models of unity and you know that the Catholic Church also has as her goal the full visible unity of the disciples of Christ, as defined by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its various Documents (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 13; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.). This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 4); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world."

He also said*** "***There can be no dialogue at the expense of truth; the dialogue must advance in charity and in truth."

Seems pretty clear to me!!


#18

There are two versions of the same speech!!

The heavier, more direct one on the WYD site

wjt2005.de/index.php?id=…73&tt_news=1085

and the lighter more PC versioin on the Vatican website

vatican.va/holy_father/b…meeting_en.html

Now I wonder! Which one did He actually deliver and why the changes?


#19

I think this is in regard to the question as to whether people can be saved without being Catholic. The Church teaches that God has divine mercy, etc, and it is not our jurisdiction to say who will be saved, but, in a few words, the Catholic way is the most direct as it was instituted by Jesus.

So there are a couple of ways he could mean demanding conversion. Demanding conversion as an infallible necessity in order to be saved? No, because then we could not believe that the patriarchs were saved, and batism by blood would neither count.

Demanding as a suggested and perfect course? A lot more along the lines.

Am I sort of correct in this idea?

God bless,
Aaron


#20

Theology does not mean doctrine or dogma. It is simply the way you think about God and how he’s involved with man. The Eastern Orthodox emphasize more on resurection and glory and that the Church is heaven on earth. The Roman Church emphasizes more on the crucifixion, how to make it to heaven, and how the Church is still awaiting the final resurection in order to be fully complete. Two different ways of thought, yet completely compatible with one another. We should not want to absorb the schismatic Eastern Churches as if they’re completely wrong.


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