Students of Virginity [Celibacy Club at Harvard]

It’s not a rant. It’s my comments in general–I don’t think I read what is going on with your son:blush: …I’ll need to scroll up.

is this the situation you speak of? If so, I did read it lol–But I was not replying to this.

But, in your son’s situation–and many others…errors in judgement happen every day. The difference with your situation, it would seem that the seeds of abstinence grew in your son’s mind, so that he felt remorseful, and came to you over it, which is outstanding, in my opinion. I have done things I’m ashamed of, but it was the seeds of right living planted in my that caused me to feel that I made a mistake, and now I have to go forward and try harder next time. Your son making the choice to use a condom–was something perhaps he needed to go through. I still think it’s great that he seemed to view it as a learning experience.

You know, there is a catch phrase out there that I never liked…‘dumbing things down.’ It would seem that those who are in favor of handing out condoms in school, in essence are dumbing down sexuality, so maybe they can look cool to kids, or whatever. My son would laugh at me if I or his dad handed him a condom, and said…‘well, if things get a little heated and you just can’t stop, you have our approval to use this.’ I mean, isn’t that what is essentially happening when teachers/schools/parents advocate condom use? What ever happened to telling kids to reach for the stars? To raise the bar? That includes sexually as well. Be a leader, not a follower.

Ok…I’m now done. Sorry to have rambled:blush: …that wasn’t directed at you that second paragraph.:stuck_out_tongue:

Okay. It just happens that your comments followed some back-and-forth discussion about my son’s condom use during a time of weakness. We taught him the same things you are teaching your son, but he gave into temptation. So, it wasn’t a condom or no condom decision until after he had already chosen the mortal sin of fornication.

Hopefully, your son will remain chaste. It is not impossible, as some seem to think. It is very doable, and the logical choice from both a religious and secular perspective.

I agree-not impossible…

:slight_smile:

originally posted by jweich
We might suggest that premarital sex with a condom is “better” than unprotected, by avoiding the tremendous hardship of creating a child. Agreed.

originally posted by rig94086
In light of that rejection, his decision to use a condom was still a “correct” decision.

Let me point out first, that this discussion is not mainly about your son. What he did is in the past. This discussion is about many things.

There have been many discussions on these forums on whether pre-marital sex (fornication)is one sin and use of a contraceptive is a second sin. Most agree that there are two sins here. Even though the sin is absolved, the temporal and eternal punishments for sin is not.

That is what concerns me the most. Young people are being pulled into this. Many young people feel, let’s just get it over with. I don’t want to be different. Everyone else is doing it and I want to be a part of my peer group.I can finally say I did it. I’m like you guys. I fit in.

Yet once a girl says yes or even a guy I suppose, there is never a reason she can say no. If she said yes to one boy she professes to love, why would she not say yes to another she professes to love. That is the downward spiral.

For the boy, it may lead to the sin of masturbation.

Exactly. I’ve talked about the end-of-virginity story with more girls, boys and women than I can count (we prided ourselves on our openness) and aside from research that showed that the two most common reasons girls have sex are coercion and peer pressure, that also happens to be the experience of the women I know. Whether it was the 60’s, '70’s, '80’s or '90’s, it worked that way. Girls weren’t going around wishing sex were more acceptable so they could fulfill their supposed overwhelming needs. They were wishing they could come up with a good way out of it, then they were reluctantly giving in to other people’s demands, not nature’s, for a while, often many years, before their own desires began. Of course, several wanted the emancipation and check, or just the love, that would come with a baby. But they couldn’t protect themselves from AIDS while trying to get pregnant, so they took their chances.

I heard that. It didn’t cross my teenage mind that getting it over with would actually make the pressure worse, or i’d never have done it.

originally posted by strngrnrth
Whether it was the 60’s, '70’s, '80’s or '90’s, it worked that way. Girls weren’t going around wishing sex were more acceptable so they could fulfill their supposed overwhelming needs. They were wishing they could come up with a good way out of it, then they were reluctantly giving in to other people’s demands, not nature’s, for a while, often many years, before their own desires began.

Up and during most of the sixties, girls were not expected to give in. If a girl did give in, she was thought of as a “bad” girl. It was almost just the opposite. Girls were expected to reserve themselves for marriage. There was a double standard because boys were not expected to and were even thought of as more knowing because they knew how to do it, more experienced. Now I am not saying there wasn’t some major sin going on involving petting, there was and many people got married in their early twenties. The sin was still there and hadn’t been addressed.

Along came women like Margaret Sangers or Chen and they have always been there. Alfred Kinsey’s wife look like a quiet midwestern wife but she sept with many of his friends. I am not sure what percentage of women are like Chen but I have heard this many time. Some start off as “Chens” but others maybe like you said, after a while become “Chens”. That is where I see the change for the females. Lesbians are also having sex.

You have a flawed understanding of absolution. Indeed the eternal punishment is absolved…that’s the whole point. You are correct that there will still be temporal punishment (purgatory).

You are correct that the whole conversation is not about my son…he was only an example for discussion. Speaking about a concrete example rather than hypotheticals or ideals is more useful sometimes. I also mentioned my own experience of having remained chaste until I was 19.

[quote=gam197]That is what concerns me the most. Young people are being pulled into this. Many young people feel, let’s just get it over with. I don’t want to be different. Everyone else is doing it and I want to be a part of my peer group.I can finally say I did it. I’m like you guys. I fit in.

Yet once a girl says yes or even a guy I suppose, there is never a reason she can say no. If she said yes to one boy she professes to love, why would she not say yes to another she professes to love. That is the downward spiral.

For the boy, it may lead to the sin of masturbation.
[/quote]

I agree, but it is more than just the peer groups. Our whole secular society has gotten to the point of full acceptance that teens will have sex. Many, many parents take that approach - they have given up without a fight. Our children are being trained in immorality.

originally posted by rig94086
You have a flawed understanding of absolution. Indeed the eternal punishment is absolved…that’s the whole point. You are correct that there will still be temporal punishment (purgatory).

I do have a flawed understanding of this and I need someone who understands it better to correct me here. Sin is absolved and the eternal punishment is absolved. Does this entail that the person has to offer up a good work now to absolve that or is it just absolved.

The temporal punishment stays so would that mean that the punishment we get is in this life such as a loss of love, sickness, is that correct or are you saying it is a punishment we get in the next or extends to the next life such as purgatory.

Often there are other sexual sins such as heavy petting going on before there is the sin of fornication.

I’ve looked up a few things in the Catechism on absolution.

In doing a search on the names Lena Chen, I found there are so many articles about Lena Chen.

This article comments that the article written by the New York Times is racist.

wikio.com/news/Lena+Chen?wfid=51676957

Strange in thinking about this, I never looked at race but only at gender.

Lena Chen is like the many white women I have known.

I think the author was attracted to Chen and that just leaked into the story. It’s got little to do with race, probably. He describes her clothing, and may be exaggerating. I have been accused to my face by men of wearing things I certainly was not wearing. And he seems fascinated by the crumbs, the ginger and the raspberries. If so, that doesn’t make him a racist, just a young, slow-maturing, not-very-professional man, one who hasn’t had to grow up and take his career seriously yet and thus can afford to write about the raspberries intead of the quotes.

Well I am glad it is not about race at least we can say a women’s sexual drive is an individual drive.

I thought I saw somewhere but can’t find, something about lesbians not being attractive and having trouble dating. This is an issue. Why do lesbians have sex with other?

Someone emailed me and said this debate was a spoof as it was sponsored by…

On Harvard Time is The Most Prestigious Fake News in the World.

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