stumbled during a debate with a jehovahs witness


#1

Ok guys so today I saw two JW’s walking in my in-laws neighborhood and I knew they would come knocking. So I answered and started to listen. Well I had been reading Jason Everts book “Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses” and was doing pretty good and even got about a confused look on their face. However when it came to Jesus being God I qouted that Jesus answered the pharisees by saying “I Am” and even made the connection to the old testament in which God called himself “I Am” as well. Well unfortunately he spoke Spanish and my Spanish is not the greatest so my answer was really weak. He threw 1 Corinthians 15:28 “when everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all” Now he quoted it in Spanish and my translating is very weak. He asks “How can Jesus be God if he was subjected to God?” Any help is appreciated.


#2

Well, remember the verse in which Jesus says "before Abraham was, I AM" has been changed in the Jehovah's Witness Bible (a long with a couple of other things).


#3

[quote="anrmenchaca47, post:1, topic:265971"]
Ok guys so today I saw two JW's walking in my in-laws neighborhood and I knew they would come knocking. So I answered and started to listen. Well I had been reading Jason Everts book "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses" and was doing pretty good and even got about a confused look on their face. However when it came to Jesus being God I qouted that Jesus answered the pharisees by saying "I Am" and even made the connection to the old testament in which God called himself "I Am" as well. Well unfortunately he spoke Spanish and my Spanish is not the greatest so my answer was really weak. He threw 1 Corinthians 15:28 "when everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all" Now he quoted it in Spanish and my translating is very weak. He asks "How can Jesus be God if he was subjected to God?" Any help is appreciated.

[/quote]

Why is he using a Catholic book to define his 1872 founded belief? Strange.

A good article on this website, catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses

Which has within it:

Is Christ God?

  1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be gasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

This supports the haydock commentary in the Douay Rheims translation:

"The Son also himself shall be subject unto him: That is, the Son will be subject to the Father, according to his human nature, even after the general resurrection; and also the whole mystical body of Christ will be entirely subject to God, obeying him in every thing."

In brief, 1 Cor 15:28 is explained by explaining the Hypostatic Union.


#4

I even told him that his translation of the bible has added words. Nonetheless, I viewed this as a great opportunity to learn more scripture however, I just need to be able to convey it cleanly in spanish. My spanish is really weak am when I try to translate I begin to stumble with words. Well, I guess that saying is true,...."You can't take a knife to a gunfight"


#5

Doubting Thomas, upon putting his hand into the risen Christ's side, said, "My Lord and my God" John 20:27-28. Strangely, this statement by St. Thomas has not been changed in the JW's New World Translation.

Original Christianity was not based on the Bible, but on the living, teaching Catholic Church, founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church's own writings.

The Bible per se did not come into existence until the end of the fourth century when the Church discerned the canon, guided by the Spirit. She named 27 of her own writings the New Testament, the 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint that she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles she named the Old Testament, and her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named tá Biblia -- the Bible (which means the Books). Tell those historical facts to a JW!

You can refer them to this online book on Bible history:

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

In case they don't have access to a computer, the book, Where We Got The Bible, is available from Catholic Answers and Amazon.


#6

[quote="anrmenchaca47, post:1, topic:265971"]
Ok guys so today I saw two JW's walking in my in-laws neighborhood and I knew they would come knocking. So I answered and started to listen. Well I had been reading Jason Everts book "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses" and was doing pretty good and even got about a confused look on their face. However when it came to Jesus being God I qouted that Jesus answered the pharisees by saying "I Am" and even made the connection to the old testament in which God called himself "I Am" as well. Well unfortunately he spoke Spanish and my Spanish is not the greatest so my answer was really weak. He threw 1 Corinthians 15:28 "when everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all" Now he quoted it in Spanish and my translating is very weak. He asks "How can Jesus be God if he was subjected to God?" Any help is appreciated.

[/quote]

...Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Messiah, the Suffering Servant, the One who came to acquire Salvation for man... as that entity, Jesus must submit to the Father, bringing everything and everyone into submission to God...

Interestingly enough though, when the Father, God, gives Jesus the Name that is above all Names... does that not create the same seeming conflict since only Jesus or Christ or Yahweh (Yeshua) is the Only Name Above All NAMES?

...incidentally, in Apocalypse, when Jesus reveals to His followers the Name that only He and his followers know... does that mean that the Father, God, is ignorant of the name? ...if so would that not mean that some men know something God does not?

...and is the Father, God, a liar when He claims that He Created the Universe since Scriptures state that Christ is the Creator of everything that exists, both the visible and the invisible--that everything was Created by Him and for Him and that it is He Who sustains it?

...besides the I AM, Jesus also hols all other titles that were given only to the Father, God, in the Old Testament: the God of the Amen, the Alpha and the Omega, the Biginning and the End, the First, the Last, the Eternal, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, the Immanuel, the Prince of Peace, the Eternal Father, the Mighty God!

...and why you are at it, ask him why is it that God Himself not only Commands His servants to worship Jesus, the Son, but calls His Son God?

...finally, why ask him why is it that while being Omnipotent the Father, God, allows the Son, God, to bully Him without any correction... this happens several times one in particular is Jesus' aclamation that ALL that the Father Has Belongs to HIM and that He gave it to the other Paraclete... so that everything that the Holy Spirit says and does is bestowed to Him by Christ...

...if you truly want to confound him... asking why is it that Jesus claims that He gives His own Life not because He has to but because He desires to and that He will take it up again... yet Scriptures attribute Jesus Resurrection not only to Jesus but also to both the Father, God and the Holy Spirit, God... and why would the Resurrection and the Life need another Power in order to Rise to Life?

Let your friend know that we speak and reason from a finite and imperfect understanding... remind him that God's Way is not our way!

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: If you have any problem with Spanish just PM or email, I'll be glad to help!


#7

[quote="anrmenchaca74, post:4, topic:265971"]
I even told him that his translation of the bible has added words. Nonetheless, I viewed this as a great opportunity to learn more scripture however, I just need to be able to convey it cleanly in spanish. My spanish is really weak am when I try to translate I begin to stumble with words. Well, I guess that saying is true,...."You can't take a knife to a gunfight"

[/quote]

...well... you can... but it will be the shortest fight you would never have the chance to tell! :D

...but you are right, defending the Faith is an excellent way to get involved with the Holy Scriptures and the Doctrine of the Church!

Maran atha!

Angel


#8

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:5, topic:265971"]
Doubting Thomas, upon putting his hand into the risen Christ's side, said, "My Lord and my God" John 20:27-28. Strangely, this statement by St. Thomas has not been changed in the JW's New World Translation.

Original Christianity was not based on the Bible, but on the living, teaching Catholic Church, founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church's own writings.

The Bible per se did not come into existence until the end of the fourth century when the Church discerned the canon, guided by the Spirit. She named 27 of her own writings the New Testament, the 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint that she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles she named the Old Testament, and her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named tá Biblia -- the Bible (which means the Books). Tell those historical facts to a JW!

You can refer them to this online book on Bible history:

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

In case they don't have access to a computer, the book, Where We Got The Bible, is available from Catholic Answers and Amazon.

[/quote]

...interstingly enough, not one of Jesus' disciples or followers showed up with a personal copy of the Sacred Scrolls and queried Jesus about the footnotes or the concordance to any of His Teachings... the further we get from Christ's Church the further we get from Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel


#9

[quote="anrmenchaca47, post:1, topic:265971"]
Ok guys so today I saw two JW's walking in my in-laws neighborhood and I knew they would come knocking. So I answered and started to listen. Well I had been reading Jason Everts book "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses" and was doing pretty good and even got about a confused look on their face. However when it came to Jesus being God I qouted that Jesus answered the pharisees by saying "I Am" and even made the connection to the old testament in which God called himself "I Am" as well. Well unfortunately he spoke Spanish and my Spanish is not the greatest so my answer was really weak. He threw 1 Corinthians 15:28 "when everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all" Now he quoted it in Spanish and my translating is very weak. He asks "How can Jesus be God if he was subjected to God?" Any help is appreciated.

[/quote]

...just hit me as I thought to get out of the thread... ask him why is it the the are so proud of being the "visible people" of Jehovah when Scriptures reveals that there is only One Name Given by which all shall be Saved and that Jesus/Christ is the One Name to which all knews will bend? ...why are they in defiance of Yahweh God?

Maran atha!

Angel


#10

First off the Witnesses don't believe in the Trinity. That being the case you will never get them to understand that Jesus is God.

They will tell you that Jesus is a mighty god but not the God. They actually believe in 2 gods. God the almighty God and mighty god they name as Jesus.

As far as Thomas saying My Lord and My God they will tell you that Thomas was using a term of endearment.

They believe that first there is God that God created Jesus then through Jesus all things were created.

They will tell you that God gave Jesus all authority and that is the final answer for them.

So I think to them Jesus is nothing without his father.

They will tell you that the Holy Spirit is a streak of lightening and not the third person of the Trinity.

Did you know that once upon a time they actually worshiped Jesus and celebrated Christmas and believed in the cross? Their beliefs change along with their Governing Body.


#11

[quote="Phyllo, post:10, topic:265971"]
They will tell you that Jesus is a mighty god but not the God. They actually believe in 2 gods. God the almighty God and mighty god they name as Jesus.

[/quote]

JW's believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.


#12

[quote="Jim_Dandy, post:11, topic:265971"]
JW's believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

[/quote]

Sad isn't it?

Yes. Which would mean that Jesus created Himself if all things were created by God through Jesus.


#13

[quote="jcrichton, post:6, topic:265971"]
...Interestingly enough though, when the Father, God, gives Jesus the Name that is above all Names... does that not create the same seeming conflict since only Jesus or Christ or Yahweh (Yeshua) is the Only Name Above All NAMES?

[/quote]

Do you know what book and verse this is in? I know that this is true but I would like to read it again.
Thanks


#14

[quote="Phyllo, post:13, topic:265971"]
Do you know what book and verse this is in? I know that this is true but I would like to read it again.
Thanks

[/quote]

Along with Colossians 1, this part of Philippians summarizes quite nicely the preeminence of our Lord.

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]


#15

[quote="Kc906, post:14, topic:265971"]
Along with Colossians 1, this part of Philippians summarizes quite nicely the preeminence of our Lord.

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]

[/quote]

Great! This is what I was looking for. Thank you very much.


#16

[quote="anrmenchaca47, post:1, topic:265971"]
Ok guys so today I saw two JW's walking in my in-laws neighborhood and I knew they would come knocking. So I answered and started to listen. Well I had been reading Jason Everts book "Answering Jehovah's Witnesses" and was doing pretty good and even got about a confused look on their face. However when it came to Jesus being God I qouted that Jesus answered the pharisees by saying "I Am" and even made the connection to the old testament in which God called himself "I Am" as well. Well unfortunately he spoke Spanish and my Spanish is not the greatest so my answer was really weak. He threw 1 Corinthians 15:28 "when everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all" Now he quoted it in Spanish and my translating is very weak. He asks "How can Jesus be God if he was subjected to God?" Any help is appreciated.

[/quote]

OK...

First off the I am he, which Jesus ascribes to Himself quite regularly for which I am is shorthand is not the name God gives the Moses. That name is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, which means roughly I am the becoming one. This is usually associated YHWH, but YHWH is actually I am he. The LXX authors when they translated this name used to Greek words, ego eimi. The name Christ ascribed to Himself in the Greek of the Gospels is this very name.

There is no doubt that He was claiming divinity. That is why they picked up stones to stone Him to death because they knew right well what He was saying.

Concerning Corinthians. I will use John because the JW's seem to like it so much.

Christ says that He does not seek His own glory but the Father's. John 8:50

That He wants to glorify the Father. John 17:1

That He seeks to do the will of the Father. John 4:34

That Father wills the Son's worship. John 6:40

Christ's authority comes from the Father. John 8:28

All of these being true, it seems plainly obvious to me that Christ's greatest joy is to glorify the Father. Furthermore since it is a sin to not glorify God then it is completely appropriate that God would seek His own glory and that the Son would glorify the Father. That being so then why wouldn't Christ place Himself under the Father?

This seems to me to be the most natural and holy thing the Son could do, and far from Paul saying Christ is not God (after all in Romans 9:5 Paul says 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.) Paul is saying that Christ, being God, has His greatest joy in Glorifying the Father, who is God.

God Bless


#17

[quote="bogeydogg, post:16, topic:265971"]
OK...

First off the I am he, which Jesus ascribes to Himself quite regularly for which I am is shorthand is not the name God gives the Moses.

[/quote]

But didn't God tell Moses in Exodus 3:14 "God replied, 'I am who am.' Then he added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you." Meaning that Moses was to tell them*(The Israelites)* that "I AM" sent Moses to them?

[quote="bogeydogg, post:16, topic:265971"]
That name is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, which means roughly I am the becoming one. This is usually associated YHWH, but YHWH is actually I am he.

[/quote]

I get this part

[quote="bogeydogg, post:16, topic:265971"]
There is no doubt that He was claiming divinity. That is why they picked up stones to stone Him to death because they knew right well what He was saying.

Concerning Corinthians. I will use John because the JW's seem to like it so much.

Christ says that He does not seek His own glory but the Father's. John 8:50

That He wants to glorify the Father. John 17:1

That He seeks to do the will of the Father. John 4:34

That Father wills the Son's worship. John 6:40

Christ's authority comes from the Father. John 8:28

All of these being true, it seems plainly obvious to me that Christ's greatest joy is to glorify the Father.

[/quote]

True...I can see why they would use the specific scripture qouted above when implying that when he was subjecting himself to the Father. So then would it be feasable for me to use John 10:30 "The Father and I are one" to show that Jesus is God?

[quote="bogeydogg, post:16, topic:265971"]
Furthermore since it is a sin to not glorify God then it is completely appropriate that God would seek His own glory and that the Son would glorify the Father. That being so then why wouldn't Christ place Himself under the Father?This seems to me to be the most natural and holy thing the Son could do, and far from Paul saying Christ is not God (after all in Romans 9:5 Paul says 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.) Paul is saying that Christ, being God, has His greatest joy in Glorifying the Father, who is God.

[/quote]

My understanding of this is that Christ, in his human nature, was showing us what to do when it comes to recognizing and glorifying God as our Father.

Nonetheless, though very good points though. Thanks a million!!!


#18

[quote="anr menchaca 47, post:17, topic:265971"]
I get this part

True...I can see why they would use the specific scripture quoted above when implying that when he was subjecting himself to the Father. So then would it be feasible for me to use John 10:30 "The Father and I are one" to show that Jesus is God?

[/quote]

They say here that Jesus and God are of the same mind not that Jesus is God.
I have been talking to one for over 4 years and they have what seems to be a reasonable explanation for every thing.


#19

[quote="Phyllo, post:18, topic:265971"]
They say here that Jesus and God are of the same mind not that Jesus is God.
I have been talking to one for over 4 years and they have what seems to be a reasonable explanation for every thing.

[/quote]

I guess it would be like beating a dead horse with a stick right?


#20

Even when it says in Hebrews starting from VS5 that God calls no son angel and no angel son they still believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. Go figure.


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