Sturgeon - Scotland could veto Brexit

Perhaps I should have clarified that I meant cultural moral values are not subjective. It is objectively immoral to commit murder, for instance, regardless of cultural nuance that might skew that view. In that regard, I conceded that it was legitimate to bar immigration were a person from a culture with radically different, obviously immoral values trying to enter a western country without the desire to integrate; then their removal could be legitimate.

I distinguish this from what the person I quoted was referring to - subjective cultural tastes, that fall into aesthetic categories. It is is illegitimate to bar people entry in order to preserve these subjective tastes, because they are transient, and all cultures generally diversify even internally with increased communication. Societies that attempt to preserve the culture they define as the “national culture” are almost always violently oppressive of free-speech and expression, and often of democracy.

Interestingly I will be vacationing with my wife in England, Scotland and Wales at the end of July. She has a class reunion in Wales but the part I am most looking forward to is a week on Skye.

That said, I am really worried for the UK which has always been one of my favourite places to visit.

The question I am asking myself at the moment is “who the hell is in charge?”. Cameron announced his resignation and frankly has no authority to negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag. There is no obvious Tory replacement yet as the party is divided into pro- and con-Boris factions. Corby is presently trying to fight off a putsch. There really is nobody to trigger the Article 50 process and negotiate with the EU. I smell a constitutional crisis over this, and I wonder how our shared Sovereign is taking all this in?

So who really is running the show at the moment? God save the Queen because at least technically the UK still has a head of state… but no viable government at the moment, and no prospect of one until both the Tories and Labour find new leaders.

Excellent post: who is in charge? That’s the million dollar question. We have a lame duck PM and government right now; feuding factions in the Tory party; essentially, no opposition with almost the entire shadow cabinet having either resigned or been sacked and their leader Corbyn rendered impotent, in tandem with escalating economic turmoil.

It’s like the aftermath of the Russian Revolution or defeat in a major war. :blush:

No one has yet invoked article 50 - nor seems willing to do so. It’s like an impasse - a limbo.

Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister, is the only political leader who has decried this shameful and crippling vacuum. Her points are substantially the same as your own.

wsj.com/articles/brexit-fallout-roils-u-k-labour-party-1466937187

Adding to the unfolding political crisis, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon pledged to protect Scotland’s place in the EU by holding another referendum on its secession from the U.K., if necessary. She also threatened to block Britain’s exit from the EU, arguing that such a decision would need the consent of Scotland’s semiautonomous Parliament.

**Ms. Sturgeon described the turmoil in the two main political parties in Westminster as “utter chaos, shambolic and frankly disgraceful.”

“At a time when the whole United Kingdom needs leadership probably more than it’s needed leadership in any part of the postwar period you have got the Conservative Party and the Labour Party completely abdicating responsibility,” she said to Sky News on Sunday. “They are letting down people across England, across the entire U.K., and I look on in utter horror.”**

The political firestorm ignited by the vote by Britons to leave the EU after more than four decades exacerbates the acute economic and financial uncertainty now dogging the nation. The U.K.’s economic and political future—as well as whether the U.K. remains a united country—rides on how Mr. Cameron’s successor navigates Britain’s complex divorce from the European bloc.

She has come out the strongest from all of this.

Her party, the SNP, are not divided. Her parliament is stable and her government is stable. Moreover she is the only one actually communicating with Brussels at the minute and has clearly set out what she wants to achieve from out of all this unremitting chaos, uncertainty and misery.

Everywhere else in the UK outside Scotland and every other major politician except Sturgeon has frankly gone bat-**** crazy over the last 48 hours.

Why is conservative Germany so pro-EU anyway?

Maybe because they are it’s dominate power

I agree with you on Ms. Sturgeon, she is the only one showing clear leadership and wisely exploring all her options, of which an independence referendum is but one.

I would not have voted for independence in the last Scottish referendum but I would be much more disposed to do so now, if I were able to vote.

It appears that they want to dominate Europe again.

So the EU wants another Greece but with better alcohol and worse food?

But they’ve got oil!

“It’s like the aftermath of the Russian Revolution or defeat in a major war”.

                             I nominate this for the most bizarre post of the week. A peaceful vote is now being compared to wars with mass fatalities.

A couple of the English folks I know who voted for Brexit are thrilled the Scots might be leaving too.

Not quite. Very many unionists voted to stay in the EU, but they would choose to be in the UK and outside the EU if it came to a choice between the two…

Truly remarkable, and pretty chicken **** on Merkel’s part. Encouraging secession might not be as unpopular in the UK as it would be in the U.S., but imagine if some foreign leader encouraged secession of, say, the American South. If Southerners as a whole endorsed that, even for some financial reward for doing it, it would be considered an outrage on the part of just about everyone. But actually, Southerners would perhaps be the most offended by it, and would want nothing to do with the foreigner who encouraged it.

I don’t think England and Scotland think of themselves as one country though. A loose confederation of 4 countries make up the UK at the moment.

Of course, so does Venezuela.

And, of course, oil is bad and causes climate change.

Is Merkel going to succeed at what Hitler, the Red Army and the Kaiser failed at? Not just destroying Germany but Briton as well.

The comparison is not particularly apt, Scotland is an older country than England rather than been a state in an Union as is the case with the USA. Merkel is ill-advised to do this but Scotland is a nation and is actually the oldest nation in the UK.

I’m not sure a feudal conglomeration of clans is a “nation”. But regardless, Merkel has no more business encouraging Scottish secession than Cameron would have in encouraging Bavaria to secede from Germany. After all, Bavaria was a separate state until the late nineteenth century.

But maybe the Scots want to effectively be part of Germany instead of Britain.

That is a rather stereotyped notion of Scottish history.

Perhaps. Wonder how much of Great Britain’s debt the Scots want to take over and pay?

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