Successful Latin Ordinary Form Experiment!


#1

Greetings all,

This past weekend, the Gregorian Institute of Canada held its annual colloquium in Montreal. As part of the colloquium, we celebrated an Ordinary Form Mass as it was intended, entirely in Latin with Gregorian chant propers and ordinary. The only parts in the vernacular (French) were the homily, and the intercessions (with some English for the intercessions). The rest, including the chanted readings, were entirely in Latin.

The Mass was at the regular 11 am Mass at Gesù Church in Montreal, home of the local Jesuits. We invited a guest priest from Ontario who was able to chant all of the priest's parts in Latin.

To help the 60 or so faithful who showed up, we had printed booklets with the Latin and French side-by-side, along with the music for all of the ordinary and the responses. The faithful were quite an age range, from I'd say late 20s to very elderly.

The amazing part was that everyone was able to follow along with the booklets. We got good responses from them at least from the normal responses. The Kyriale was not one of the easiest ones (Kyrie 12). Our schola was an ad-hoc schola formed from the participants in the colloquium, ranging in skill level from intermediate to expert. In addition to the ordinary we sang the entire propers for the 20th Sunday of OT from the Graduale Romanum. The Eucharistic prayer, also chanted, was the Roman Canon.

This is what the Ordinary Form was intended to be in all its glory. Interestingly, it was entirely put together and sung by amateurs, not by professionals nor by a religious community well-versed in chant. We are therefore very pleased with how this experiment turned out! Surely having OF Masses like this is not out of the reach of everyone, especially in larger centers where there should be sufficiently skilled singers available. If Traditionalists can have EF Masses in Latin, it should be within our reach to have OF Masses in Latin on a regular basis as well.

We are grateful to the Jesuits to allow us to hold our event and our Mass in Gesù church. Next year's colloquium will be in Vancouver, BC for those interested.

Gregorian Institute of Canada


#2

sounds very nice


#3

[quote="OraLabora, post:1, topic:295910"]
Greetings all,

This past weekend, the Gregorian Institute of Canada held its annual colloquium in Montreal. As part of the colloquium, we celebrated an Ordinary Form Mass as it was intended, entirely in Latin with Gregorian chant propers and ordinary. The only parts in the vernacular (French) were the homily, and the intercessions (with some English for the intercessions). The rest, including the chanted readings, were entirely in Latin.

The Mass was at the regular 11 am Mass at Gesù Church in Montreal, home of the local Jesuits. We invited a guest priest from Ontario who was able to chant all of the priest's parts in Latin.

To help the 60 or so faithful who showed up, we had printed booklets with the Latin and French side-by-side, along with the music for all of the ordinary and the responses. The faithful were quite an age range, from I'd say late 20s to very elderly.

The amazing part was that everyone was able to follow along with the booklets. We got good responses from them at least from the normal responses. The Kyriale was not one of the easiest ones (Kyrie 12). Our schola was an ad-hoc schola formed from the participants in the colloquium, ranging in skill level from intermediate to expert. In addition to the ordinary we sang the entire propers for the 20th Sunday of OT from the Graduale Romanum. The Eucharistic prayer, also chanted, was the Roman Canon.

This is what the Ordinary Form was intended to be in all its glory. Interestingly, it was entirely put together and sung by amateurs, not by professionals nor by a religious community well-versed in chant. We are therefore very pleased with how this experiment turned out! Surely having OF Masses like this is not out of the reach of everyone, especially in larger centers where there should be sufficiently skilled singers available. If Traditionalists can have EF Masses in Latin, it should be within our reach to have OF Masses in Latin on a regular basis as well.

We are grateful to the Jesuits to allow us to hold our event and our Mass in Gesù church. Next year's colloquium will be in Vancouver, BC for those interested.

Gregorian Institute of Canada

[/quote]

Awesome! I wish all OF masses were like this.

Behold, the future hybrid mass. :D

Can you go a little more into "all its glory"? I'm serious, which part of the OF mass shone the most in Latin?


#4

Praise the Lord!! I am so happy for this! I cant wait to the new liturgical movement takes hold of the Church in North America as more things like this start happening.

Did anyone happen to record this Mass in video? I bet many people would love to see it!:D


#5

[quote="OraLabora, post:1, topic:295910"]
Greetings all,

This past weekend, the Gregorian Institute of Canada held its annual colloquium in Montreal. As part of the colloquium, we celebrated an Ordinary Form Mass as it was intended, entirely in Latin with Gregorian chant propers and ordinary. The only parts in the vernacular (French) were the homily, and the intercessions (with some English for the intercessions). The rest, including the chanted readings, were entirely in Latin.

The Mass was at the regular 11 am Mass at Gesù Church in Montreal, home of the local Jesuits. We invited a guest priest from Ontario who was able to chant all of the priest's parts in Latin.

To help the 60 or so faithful who showed up, we had printed booklets with the Latin and French side-by-side, along with the music for all of the ordinary and the responses. The faithful were quite an age range, from I'd say late 20s to very elderly.

The amazing part was that everyone was able to follow along with the booklets. We got good responses from them at least from the normal responses. The Kyriale was not one of the easiest ones (Kyrie 12). Our schola was an ad-hoc schola formed from the participants in the colloquium, ranging in skill level from intermediate to expert. In addition to the ordinary we sang the entire propers for the 20th Sunday of OT from the Graduale Romanum. The Eucharistic prayer, also chanted, was the Roman Canon.

This is what the Ordinary Form was intended to be in all its glory. Interestingly, it was entirely put together and sung by amateurs, not by professionals nor by a religious community well-versed in chant. We are therefore very pleased with how this experiment turned out! Surely having OF Masses like this is not out of the reach of everyone, especially in larger centers where there should be sufficiently skilled singers available. If Traditionalists can have EF Masses in Latin, it should be within our reach to have OF Masses in Latin on a regular basis as well.

We are grateful to the Jesuits to allow us to hold our event and our Mass in Gesù church. Next year's colloquium will be in Vancouver, BC for those interested.

Gregorian Institute of Canada

[/quote]

Sounds awesome! Did the priest face ad orientum?


#6

[quote="TrueLight, post:3, topic:295910"]
Awesome! I wish all OF masses were like this.

[/quote]

I don't. In fact, I will be very very disappointed if things go that direction. I can honestly say if the Mass had been in Latin, I would have never become Catholic.

How in the world I am supposed to follow along with new prayers and the different options in the Missal in Latin I have no idea. Not and get anything out of it spiritually anyway. I know there is a Missal, and I know you can read the translation. But here's the thing. In English I don't need it. I can close my eyes, and listen and pray along, focus on seeing the priest in the person of Christ, etc. Why? Because I don't have my nose buried in the Missal trying to follow a language that I don't speak and never will.

Anyone who knows music knows that when you sight read, it doesn't go well and there is no way you are getting the intent of the composer in terms of what the music is trying to convey. It is no different sight reading the Missal every single week. Yes, I know that some of the prayers show up again and again, the Kyrie, the Agnus Dei, etc., but many of the prayers of the priest don't. The readings don't. Those are important.

Behold, the future hybrid mass. :D

I dearly hope not. In my opinion, what is needed is to tighten up on how the OF of the Mass is said so that it is done with beauty and reverence in everything from the Music, to the vestments, to the homilies, etc. Then we will have the EF of the Mass for those who prefer that, the OF of the Mass for those who prefer that, and then some other rites sprinkled in as well. What language it is in, has nothing to do with whether or not it is properly done. As many of our Catholics who have been around since before VII have noted, there were problems in the liturgy then also, its just that very few noticed it because they didn't speak the language and the laity were not encouraged to speak out about such things.

I am consistently amazed at people who want access to the EF of the Mass and get upset when it is not available to them but wish to deny others the Mass that they prefer. I am not saying that is what you are trying to do, but it is the impression that I get frequently from traditionalists both here and elsewhere. I do not prefer the EF of the Mass and have made no secrets of that. However, I have been very supportive of those who do find it more spiritual fulfilling having decent access to it. I would very much appreciate being given the same courtesy.

I have no problem with the OF being done in Latin if that is what some prefer. As long as it does not take away from what many find spiritually fulfilling, which is Mass being said in their own language.


#7

[quote="jwinch2, post:6, topic:295910"]
I don't. In fact, I will be very very disappointed if things go that direction. I can honestly say if the Mass had been in Latin, I would have never become Catholic.

I dearly hope not. In my opinion, what is needed is to tighten up on how the OF of the Mass is said so that it is done with beauty and reverence in everything from the Music, to the vestments, to the homilies, etc. Then we will have the EF of the Mass for those who prefer that, the OF of the Mass for those who prefer that, and then some other rites sprinkled in as well. What language it is in, has nothing to do with whether or not it is properly done. As many of our Catholics who have been around since before VII have noted, there were problems in the liturgy then also, its just that very few noticed it because they didn't speak the language and the laity were not encouraged to speak out about such things.

I am consistently amazed at people who want access to the EF of the Mass and get upset when it is not available to them but wish to deny others the Mass that they prefer. I am not saying that is what you are trying to do, but it is the impression that I get frequently from traditionalists both here and elsewhere. I do not prefer the EF of the Mass and have made no secrets of that. However, I have been very supportive of those who do find it more spiritual fulfilling having decent access to it. I would very much appreciate being given the same courtesy.

[/quote]

I can understand your feelings, as my wife would have a hard time if this became the norm. On the other hand, I would be ecstatic. Now, I am not God, nor the Pope, yet think about this: 1) Vernacular is already circulated and implemented- so it ain't going to disappear imo 2) Latin has a secure place in the Latin Church- read some Pre V-II books that talk about the liturgy and see the reverence people had for the sacred language (I don't say this in a snippity manner, but encouraging), and 3) implementing Latin back in the Church can provide cross-cultural unity in the Church. I don't know about you, but I've been to a Mass in Vietnamese and I feel completely out of sorts- even though I can visually appreciate their reverence. Yet, I don't feel out of sorts in a Latin Mass. I think because there is such a desire for it amongst the next generation, it is going to grow in popularity, which is a good thing.


#8

[quote="OraLabora, post:1, topic:295910"]
Greetings all,

This past weekend, the Gregorian Institute of Canada held its annual colloquium in Montreal. As part of the colloquium, we celebrated an Ordinary Form Mass as it was intended, entirely in Latin with Gregorian chant propers and ordinary. The only parts in the vernacular (French) were the homily, and the intercessions (with some English for the intercessions). The rest, including the chanted readings, were entirely in Latin.

The Mass was at the regular 11 am Mass at Gesù Church in Montreal, home of the local Jesuits. We invited a guest priest from Ontario who was able to chant all of the priest's parts in Latin.

To help the 60 or so faithful who showed up, we had printed booklets with the Latin and French side-by-side, along with the music for all of the ordinary and the responses. The faithful were quite an age range, from I'd say late 20s to very elderly.

[/quote]

Cool. Good work. :thumbsup:


#9

[quote="codefro, post:7, topic:295910"]
I can understand your feelings, as my wife would have a hard time if this became the norm. On the other hand, I would be ecstatic. Now, I am not God, nor the Pope, yet think about this: 1) Vernacular is already circulated and implemented- so it ain't going to disappear imo 2) Latin has a secure place in the Latin Church- read some Pre V-II books that talk about the liturgy and see the reverence people had for the sacred language (I don't say this in a snippity manner, but encouraging), and 3) implementing Latin back in the Church can provide cross-cultural unity in the Church. I don't know about you, but I've been to a Mass in Vietnamese and I feel completely out of sorts- even though I can visually appreciate their reverence. Yet, I don't feel out of sorts in a Latin Mass. I think because there is such a desire for it amongst the next generation, it is going to grow in popularity, which is a good thing.

[/quote]

When I traveled to Brazil, I heard Mass in Portuguese and had no problem with it. Heck, I was in Brazil after all. However, when I am in America I prefer to hear Mass in a language that I speak and understand without burying my head in a book through the entire thing. I would rather be lost on the rare occasion that I travel, then every week.

Suggesting that it is only proper to have the Mass in Latin is the same to me as suggesting it is only proper to have the Bible, Papal Encyclicals, or the Catechism in Latin. I understand the importance for Church documents in having a language which does not change for official use in teachings, encyclicals, etc. But, I believe the Church needs to meet the people where they are, not where they aren't. In addition, I understand your comment about reverence in the liturgy, but that, in my opinion, is not about the language. It is a far deeper issue. Go to a Anglican Use Mass sometime and tell me that they don't have a reverent liturgy. Go to a Benedictine Monastery when they celebrate the OF and see the same thing. If you do, it becomes apparent that you can have chant or other beautiful reverent music, incense, beautiful vestments, sung prayer, meaty homilies, etc. and have the whole thing in English. Its not the language which equals reverence, its the manner in which it is celebrated.

I would have no problem in seeing an increase in the frequency and availability of the EF of the Mass if there is high demand for it. And I have no problem with seeing an increase in the OF of the Mass in Latin, if there is demand for it. However, I again just ask that others give myself, and the many others who feel the same way that I do, the same courtesy. And I reject the idea that reverence=Latin.


#10

[quote="OraLabora, post:1, topic:295910"]
Greetings all,

This past weekend, the Gregorian Institute of Canada held its annual colloquium in Montreal. As part of the colloquium, we celebrated an Ordinary Form Mass as it was intended, entirely in Latin with Gregorian chant propers and ordinary. The only parts in the vernacular (French) were the homily, and the intercessions (with some English for the intercessions). The rest, including the chanted readings, were entirely in Latin.

The Mass was at the regular 11 am Mass at Gesù Church in Montreal, home of the local Jesuits. We invited a guest priest from Ontario who was able to chant all of the priest's parts in Latin.

To help the 60 or so faithful who showed up, we had printed booklets with the Latin and French side-by-side, along with the music for all of the ordinary and the responses. The faithful were quite an age range, from I'd say late 20s to very elderly.

The amazing part was that everyone was able to follow along with the booklets. We got good responses from them at least from the normal responses. The Kyriale was not one of the easiest ones (Kyrie 12). Our schola was an ad-hoc schola formed from the participants in the colloquium, ranging in skill level from intermediate to expert. In addition to the ordinary we sang the entire propers for the 20th Sunday of OT from the Graduale Romanum. The Eucharistic prayer, also chanted, was the Roman Canon.

This is what the Ordinary Form was intended to be in all its glory. Interestingly, it was entirely put together and sung by amateurs, not by professionals nor by a religious community well-versed in chant. We are therefore very pleased with how this experiment turned out! Surely having OF Masses like this is not out of the reach of everyone, especially in larger centers where there should be sufficiently skilled singers available. If Traditionalists can have EF Masses in Latin, it should be within our reach to have OF Masses in Latin on a regular basis as well.

We are grateful to the Jesuits to allow us to hold our event and our Mass in Gesù church. Next year's colloquium will be in Vancouver, BC for those interested.

Gregorian Institute of Canada

[/quote]

Nice work! Even though, per my comments above, you can see that this likely would not be my cup of tea, I respect the efforts you are putting in and am very glad that it was so successful. I pray that all who feel fulfilled by Mass done in this manner will have access to it in the near future.

Peace,


#11

Beautiful! We go to weekly Latin mass and it's breathtaking!


#12

Excellent! Good for you, OraLabora. Did anyone in the congregation say anything about it afterwards?


#13

[quote="jwinch2, post:9, topic:295910"]
When I traveled to Brazil, I heard Mass in Portuguese and had no problem with it. Heck, I was in Brazil after all. However, when I am in America I prefer to hear Mass in a language that I speak and understand without burying my head in a book through the entire thing. I would rather be lost on the rare occasion that I travel, then every week.

[/quote]

Bishops now allow all-vernacular Masses in other than the national language. There are no restrictions using other approved translations. But it seems like somewhere in the liturgy there should be some commonness.

And I don't see people burying their heads in a Latin missal any more than in an English-only or Spanish-only Mass. Maybe some just like the mystery behind the Mass without trying to understand every word. Just saying.


#14

[quote="jwinch2, post:6, topic:295910"]

I am consistently amazed at people who want access to the EF of the Mass and get upset when it is not available to them but wish to deny others the Mass that they prefer. I am not saying that is what you are trying to do, but it is the impression that I get frequently from traditionalists both here and elsewhere. I do not prefer the EF of the Mass and have made no secrets of that. However, I have been very supportive of those who do find it more spiritual fulfilling having decent access to it. I would very much appreciate being given the same courtesy.

[/quote]

I'm amazed at your reaction.

My primary intention was sharing in OraLabora's excitement.

So what if I wish all OF masses were this way? Does that mean I'm going to march into an OF and force everyone to start speaking Latin?

Let's be clear. I don't only attend the EF because it is in Latin, but for other reasons as well..

So I only responded because I generally felt happy that OL was so excited and I think it would be a beautiful thing if the majority of OFs could be celebrated that way. That's my preference and opinion and I'm entitled to it.

:shrug:


#15

Before I reply, I want to congratulate OraLabora on a successful celebration.

I agree with the sentiments jwinch2 expressed.

We actually had a “special” Mass at our Cathedral this past weekend that had a special choir in (some school for the arts choral group) that sang the people’s parts not just in Latin, but in full choral performances. They deserved the round of applause they got at the end. If this was a music festival I would have given them top marks.

And yes, I know well enough that music at Mass is not a performance, but this was (although they were very generous in allowing us mere mortals to join them in the opening and closing hymns). Ok, I’ll turn the sarcasm off now.

For me, being able to join in the music is one of my favourite parts of the Mass. Instead, what happened was a congregation of people stood there looking totally bored. During the Sanctus, the priests at the altar were even having a mini-conversation about something (I can’t blame them, the choir sang the line “hosanna in excelsis” 10 times at least. So why is it that when that happens in english it’s called excessive, but in heavily-stylized Latin it’s ok?).

Take for example the Gloria. The words are absolutely beautiful, very fitting for a song of praise to God. It felt like it was skipped (it mine as well have been, all I could hear was the first line and then the choir totally lost me).
I think the biggest disappointment came at the Credo though, which was also sung in another complexly performed concert-piece in Latin. It’s the bloody Profession of Faith, the profession that each person makes for themselves and what they believe (it’s why we changed the Nicene Creed to “I believe” instead of “We believe”) as taught by the Church, and all we got to do was stand there and stare off into space.

I’m sure some people here would be on cloud 9 with that Mass, but if that regularly happened I’d change parishes in a heartbeat. I can’t stand being at a Mass where I feel like I’m watching a performance, whether it be the music or the priest.

Don’t get me wrong, I congratulate the musicians on their talent, which is as I said amazing, but when I see something as universal as music become so exclusive and privatized to just a few ultra-talented people, it breaks my heart.

Yes, I remember this being explained on the TC forum. Instead people just space off into their own private prayers as if they weren’t even there.

Yes, you are entitled to it. And those of us who don’t prefer it are similarly entitled to our own opinion. And the Church allows both.


#16

[quote="TrueLight, post:14, topic:295910"]

So what if I wish all OF masses were this way? Does that mean I'm going to march into an OF and force everyone to start speaking Latin?

[/quote]

While I am happy to have the OF in English, I do not wish that all Masses were that way because that would deny those who find spiritual fulfillment in something else that which they need to thrive. I have been very careful throughout my time here in CAF and in my general life as a Christian to respect the spiritual needs of those who prefer Latin and the EF of the Mass. I have repeatedly stated that I hope that all who desire it, have access to it, so that they are as fulfilled by the Mass as they can be. In addition, I have spoken out against situations where the faithful who desire the EF of the Mass are not having their needs met, and have participated in activities to improve that situation.

So let us be clear. Its not about you walking in to force others to speak Latin, its about the idea that you would wish to deny others what they need spiritually or simply what is their own preference in favor of your own. You are fully aware that many Catholics who are doing their best to be faithful to the Church prefer having the Mass in their native language. Yet, despite this knowledge, you wish that all OF Masses were in Latin. This would, in essence, deny them the form of the Mass which they find the most spiritually fulfilling. Even when I tried to give you out and a chance to walk it back by suggesting that you didn't really mean that, you doubled down on your statement by saying "so what".

Remarks like that give me the impression that you don't care about the spiritual needs of others, including my own. Knowing you somewhat, I do not believe that is an accurate portrayal of your feelings. But, that is what comes across to me when you make remarks like that, and then, follow up on them as you did. Since I happen to be one of those people who are spiritually fulfilled by having Mass in my native language, and who believes 100% that I would not be Catholic to begin with if Mass were said in Latin, the suggestion that you would want to take from me something which meets my spiritual needs and replace it with something which does not, bothers me.

I love chant, love the pipe organ, love incense, love beautiful and classic vestments, love classic Church architecture, love sung prayer, etc. but please, give it to me in English.

And, for the record, I am happy that things went so well for him as well. I hope that all Catholics who prefer to have the OF of the Mass in Latin will be able to have access to it, and that these efforts will help to bring that about.


#17

[quote="ProVobis, post:13, topic:295910"]
Bishops now allow all-vernacular Masses in other than the national language. There are no restrictions using other approved translations. But it seems like somewhere in the liturgy there should be some commonness.

And I don't see people burying their heads in a Latin missal any more than in an English-only or Spanish-only Mass. Maybe some just like the mystery behind the Mass without trying to understand every word. Just saying.

[/quote]

You might be right, some may feel exactly that way but I can't say for sure. I know that if they exist, I'm not one of them. Regardless, I pray you always have access to the form of the Mass which best meets your needs. All I want is to have the same.

Peace,


#18

To answer a few questions, it was versus populum (the altar arrangement would not work otherwise, IMHO; even though the original high altar and reredos is still there, there's a table altar ahead of it, though still in the sanctuary).

Yes, several people came up afterwards to thank us.

Keep in mind it is a French community; and Latin is not as much of an obstacle for us as for some other linguistic groups.

I'm realistic and I don't think it will become the norm. But what I'd like to see is, say, once a month, or perhaps weekly at some major church (the cathedral or one of the basilicas perhaps), a Latin OF Mass offered. If Traditionalists can have a weekly EF, why not a weekly or monthly OF the way it was intended?


#19

[quote="TrueLight, post:3, topic:295910"]
Awesome! I wish all OF masses were like this.

Behold, the future hybrid mass. :D

Can you go a little more into "all its glory"? I'm serious, which part of the OF mass shone the most in Latin?

[/quote]

I think this would be perfect: chant the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei and do the rest in the local language. I've been enjoying this style of Mass at a different parish this summer and I'm going to miss it. I feel like I'm too "new" to suggest such a thing at my home parish but it would be nice if one of the Sunday masses was this kind of Mass. :o


#20

[quote="OraLabora, post:18, topic:295910"]
I'm realistic and I don't think it will become the norm. But what I'd like to see is, say, once a month, or perhaps weekly at some major church (the cathedral or one of the basilicas perhaps), a Latin OF Mass offered.

[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far, but I am interested to see if anything ever comes of PP Benedict XVI's "reform of the reform" project. Personally, I would have no major objection to some organic rubrical (not structural) changes in the Usus Antiquior, something along the lines of the 1965 "interim Missal" (but certainly not anything like the 1967 aberration).


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.