"Suffering removes our attachment to sin."


#1

[RANT]
Something similar to the thread title was said in the Protestants object to Purgatory thread. This concept makes no sense to me. Where does it come from?

If you torture an alcoholic and promise more torture if he drinks again, will it remove his temptation to become drunk? Or will it make him drink to try and forget the torture?

Ever heard of a meth addict who could just stop being on meth? What if you make them suffer more than the meth does? Guess what? It won’t work.

It doesnt’ work for our attachments to other sins either.

I used to suffer from SSA. It really was suffering because I couldn’t control the attraction even though I sincerely believed it was wrong and prayed for God to help me. No amount of my trying made it leave. Even when I quit trying to resist it and my life becme a huge mess and I suffered greatly the suffering didn’t let up, suffering only gave me additional reasons to try to resist the SSA. People told me that it ment my destiny was to be single and suffer all my life. There’s a Loving God… “I won’t be healing you because I want you to be both single and celibate and to suffer … lots!” Riiiight!!! I didn’t buy it, It’s sad some do because it teaches hopelessness. DO we serve a God of hopelessness?

One day, something different happened. I asked God to show me WHY I had SSA, where did the root of it start? HE showed me. It was a confusion from something I thought was totally unrelated. God took the SSA from me Instantly and competely! There was no suffering from purification. THere was a sadness that I had been decieved by Satan and some tears from repentance but the purification hd no suffering. There was only IMMENSE JOY and relief. Suffering is not a fruit of the spirit. Now, years have passed. there is no SSA, no temptation at all, no struggle. Only the Joy of being FREE in CHRIST.

Suffering isn’t what purifies us. God’s love and mercy is what purifies us. Every objection I have to the Catholic faith boils down to Justification by faith and the LOVE of God for us. I know Catholics believe God loves us, but so many doctrines I have seen do not demonstrate this. We must suffer to be purified. Mary couldn’t have ever sinned because then she wouldn’t be completely pure. The Holy Spirit only directly directs a church authority and not the children of God. The Real Presence of Christ is not with us, walking through our daily lives with us, only through the Eucharist.

Don’t any Catholics know FREEDOM from sin nature? Why is there so much worry about little things “IS it Mortal to read the missal during Mass?” “How about if liturgal dancers dance?” Frankly, it reminds me of the Pharisees! God isn’t worried about human entrapments like standing or sitting for x number of phrases. He is worried about one thing, love. God is love. Do you Love Him with ALL yout heart mind and strength? Do you also show that love for Him by loving your neighbor?

God adopt us as His Children. Think about that. How do you treat your children. If they misbehave, you discipline them, yes. But do you discipline them so they will be purer in your presence? NO, you discipline them out of love, so that they might learn the folly of their ways. Discipline is not all about “punishment” or “suffering” it’s about teaching. I’d call a parent that uses pain for all teaching, even when unnecessary, abusive. God is not abusive.[/RANT]


#2

AMEN SISTER:thumbsup:

What is SSA:o If you dont mind me asking.


#3

SSA stands for Same Sex Attraction. It is typically preferred by people who are attraced to the same gender but do not act on it because of beliefs. Homosexual is more often used by people who do not avoid the attraction. Even so, those are both pretty general ways to describe the terms. Some peoples definitions wouldn’t fit.


#4

You are confusing the sufferings of purgatory for those of earthly life. Once a person is in purgatory he is saved, but any attachments he had to venial sins has to be rooted out of him. This is not torture, but just what the word purgatory means–purging.

If you torture an alcoholic and promise more torture if he drinks again, will it remove his temptation to become drunk? Or will it make him drink to try and forget the torture?

Ever heard of a meth addict who could just stop being on meth? What if you make them suffer more than the meth does? Guess what? It won’t work.

It doesnt’ work for our attachments to other sins either.

I used to suffer from SSA. It really was suffering because I couldn’t control the attraction even though I sincerely believed it was wrong and prayed for God to help me. No amount of my trying made it leave. Even when I quit trying to resist it and my life becme a huge mess and I suffered greatly the suffering didn’t let up, suffering only gave me additional reasons to try to resist the SSA. People told me that it ment my destiny was to be single and suffer all my life. There’s a Loving God… “I won’t be healing you because I want you to be both single and celibate and to suffer … lots!” Riiiight!!! I didn’t buy it, It’s sad some do because it teaches hopelessness. DO we serve a God of hopelessness?

Everything you described is suffering–alchoholism, meth addiction, SSA–they are all sufferings people may have in this life. They are not the sufferings of purgatory, which is a purging process not torture or punishment as you have envisioned it.

One day, something different happened. I asked God to show me WHY I had SSA, where did the root of it start? HE showed me. It was a confusion from something I thought was totally unrelated. God took the SSA from me Instantly and competely! There was no suffering from purification. THere was a sadness that I had been decieved by Satan and some tears from repentance but the purification hd no suffering. There was only IMMENSE JOY and relief. Suffering is not a fruit of the spirit. Now, years have passed. there is no SSA, no temptation at all, no struggle. Only the Joy of being FREE in CHRIST.

Suffering isn’t what purifies us. God’s love and mercy is what purifies us. Every objection I have to the Catholic faith boils down to Justification by faith and the LOVE of God for us. I know Catholics believe God loves us, but so many doctrines I have seen do not demonstrate this. We must suffer to be purified. Mary couldn’t have ever sinned because then she wouldn’t be completely pure. The Holy Spirit only directly directs a church authority and not the children of God. The Real Presence of Christ is not with us, walking through our daily lives with us, only through the Eucharist.

Don’t any Catholics know FREEDOM from sin nature? Why is there so much worry about little things “IS it Mortal to read the missal during Mass?” “How about if liturgal dancers dance?” Frankly, it reminds me of the Pharisees! God isn’t worried about human entrapments like standing or sitting for x number of phrases. He is worried about one thing, love. God is love. Do you Love Him with ALL yout heart mind and strength? Do you also show that love for Him by loving your neighbor?

God adopt us as His Children. Think about that. How do you treat your children. If they misbehave, you discipline them, yes. But do you discipline them so they will be purer in your presence? NO, you discipline them out of love, so that they might learn the folly of their ways. Discipline is not all about “punishment” or “suffering” it’s about teaching. I’d call a parent that uses pain for all teaching, even when unnecessary, abusive. God is not abusive.[/RANT]

While it is wonderful that the Lord has healed you of your affliction, and I rejoice with you, that alone doesn’t prove the Catholic Church wrong. Nor does it have anything to do with the proper order of the Liturgy of the Mass and other such issues.

Love is the most important of the virtues, but it’s not the only one. If it were, then there would have been no need for you to be delivered from the SSA suffering in your life. Truth is also of major importance. After all, Jesus didn’t describe himself as just Love. He described himself as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Those of us who love and worship him in the Church he founded, know that very well indeed.


#5

:frowning: I don’t believe you understood the point of my post. I have to go to lunch, but I’ll be back to answer you in a while.


#6

Reflecting on my OWN experiences, I am a much stronger Christian because of my sufferings.

In suffering, we have to take things very seriously.


#7

I don’t see how suffering in earthly life pertains to salvation.
There is obviously some desent about what this “purging” entails. newadvent.org calles it “punishment”, it goes on to say, “That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture.” ScriptureCatholic calls it “A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness.” They seem to agree it is suffering and punishment. But if I was mentioning purgatury to discuss it specifically I’d have stayed in the “Why do Protestants object to Purgatory” thread. Purgatory was only one example.

I decribed those things as attachments to sin. Is not purgatory there to cleanse people from attachments to their sin? As I have read in Numerous Catholic resources, purgatory includes suffering, and the point is to remove attachments to sin.

My testimony was not put here to “prove the Catholic Church wrong”, I put it here (with some trepidation I might add) because it DOES show another example of God’s ways. The fixation on the proper order of things was another example of my point.

The Scriptures plus my own experience tell me God works in certian ways, Catholics seem to be saying He does NOT work in these ways

Can you really rejoice with me, do you what it feels like? (I’m not saying you cannot, I’m asking.) Have you ever experienced God’s peace and love in such a way that you permanently lost all need to even worry about temptation to sin in that area? As I read this forum I see no evidence of this sort of freedom in Catholics. I’m asking if it exists and somehow doesn’t show in a forum setting.

The point of my post is that I disagree with the Catholic view of God’s nature. These other topics are examples of the way God does and does not work in humans. We are no longer slaves to the law! We can have freedom.

Of course love isn’t the only virtue, but the others stem from it because it is the most important. If love were the only virtue, I WOULD still have had need to be delivered from SSA because God loved me and wants me to be able to follow Him out of love for Him, not out of fear of being smited. Also things that are bad for us should be kept from us. It’s not a virtue to be heterosexual, but it is a loving God that dosn’t want the problems from homosexuality to hurt us. Jesus didn’t say “the greastest of these is love” just to make a nice looking list.

The point of my post (this other stuff being only examples) is that I cannot see becoming Catholic because the belief about* the very nature of who God is* is so vastly different. Each thread here seems to pick apart the smaller issues (examples of this) and ignore the huge difference. Even when I put it all out, you missed the whole point and went to “The Catholic Church is wrong” and “Purgatory”.


#8

“And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose.” (Romans 8:28 NIV)

God does teach us many things through our hardships in life. He doesn’t inflict those hardships though, ,He uses them for our good. This is teaching us, or discipline… Not wanton pain infliction. Sometimes discipline does require suffering, often it does not. It was not the suffering that removed our attachment to sin, it was God’s love for us, working though events in our lives thats are painful. This is very different than the concept of purgatory… purging rather then teaching. There is no temptation to sin in Heaven. not just because we will be totally sanctified by then but because the “temptor” will not be allowed there in the first place.


#9

Syele, praise be to God for his love made manifest in you! What a wonderful testimony!

I’m not a purgatory expert, but in your paragraph above one thing did catch my eye. You wanted to have the temptation removed, and God answered your prayer. But what if you didn’t want the temptation removed, and then died in the meantime, with a temptation that you wanted to keep?

In that case, the process of purgation would be painful because it’s letting go of something you want, not something you wanted to be rid of. So I think this is a bit different than what you describe above.

But how blessed you are to have such a prayer answered! With regard to our own sins and “attractions”, perhaps most of us just don’t pray enough, or listen to an answer when it arrives.

.


#10

It’s certainly an interesting question, Syele, and a very complex one - what is God’s relationship to suffering?

For me, this quote from Raniero Cantalamessa got me thinking. He wrote, “suffering, because Christ underwent it, has the mysterious power to undo sin”.

God’s relationship to suffering is a deep and profound one - scripture tells us that Christ was ‘acquainted with suffering’ - while I don’t think that God inflicts, or wants to inflict, suffering on anyone, it may be that he allows it as long as it can serve his purposes. It certainly served a purpose with regards to our salvation.

St Francis is someone else who tried to understand suffering as part of his Christian life. He lived as if it was God himself who was asking him to suffer, accepting trials with love and patience. This is reflected in the OT, “if we accept the good from God’s hand, should we not also accept the bad?” (can’t remember chapter and verse!)

With regard to some of the other things you were talking about, I don’t think it matters whether someone is Catholic or Protestant, they are able to live in the freedom and love that Christ brings.
What I think worries me the most are those Christians (Catholic and Protestant) who paint the Christian life as a rosy garden. You know the one’s I mean! - they tell you that once you have made a ‘commitment’ that nothing will ever go wrong for you again! That all suffering somehow goes away; that if you’re not bubbly and happy ALL THE TIME that you are an inferior Christian. Do you know what I mean? That’s not my experience of being a Christian!


#11

I don’t agree about the wanting to have the temptation removed part of your post. Here’s why:

Most gays. lesbians, and Bisexuals will tell you that it’s NOT a choice to be the way they are. They’d be willing to give quite alot to not be that way. I once sat through a lecture from a homosexual crossdresser on how silly people are who think anyone would choose that lifestyle! He was the sort you’d see in a “Gay Pride” Parade too. If you could look around during that lecture everyone was nodding approval. They DON’T like it, but have accepted what the world tells them - they are made that way, they have no choice in the matter. Choosing to remain homosexual or remain in any cycle of sinful behaviour is generally due to a sense of hopelessness. They don’t believe there IS any choice.

No Christian wants to be hopeless. Everyone likes to have choices. This is human nature.

The person who is so far gone that they do not want to be purged of their sin would not ask God to purge them of it. They probably have no hope in God at all. These people would not go to purgatory in the first place, so their purgation being painful isn’t even an option.

I don’t understand how anyone can be a Christian and want to remain in sin. Even when I was at rock bottom. Not living in a Christian way at all, I did not want to be where I was! God did not say, “Your sin is mortal, you will go to hell if you don’t repent!” No, He said, “You are my child, I love you!” He showed me that I was still His child but I was powerless to help anyone else not go to hell because I was not behaving as a Christian should. I didn’t want to be powerless in God’s sight.

See this is the difference. Catholics believe that God is so angry about sin that He will leave you to your own stupidity, so that when you sin mortally, you will go to hell if you die right then. I don’t agree with the Catholic definition of mortal sin. God doesn’t abandon His children just because we are stupid. He compares us to sheep for a reason. Do you know how bright sheep are?


#12

In real life I don’t think Catholics are as concerned with is every little thing a mortal sin as seems from the many threads on the topic of the missalette and the like indicates. I don’t walk around fearing a mortal sin is lurking on every corner. In general, the Christian message is one of hope, not fear. I was much more inclined to fear before I became Catholic. In fact, being Catholic is about the only place I think I had a good chance of losing my fear. I think you get a different impression from the threads because one can freely ask any little thing that comes to the mind in anonymity.

Although it is too soon to call it “permanent”, seeing as how I haven’t died yet or anything :), I have testified elsewhere on this forum that I was freed from chastity issues, through the action of the Holy Spirit and going to confession. It was a dramatic thing, though I can’t say that I had addiction problems, so I don’t know what it is like to overcome those. It is not surprising to me that you have a similar experience with God’s grace. His grace is pretty cool.

It is for freedom that we have been set free. We ought to walk by the Spirit and not give in to the flesh. Catholics generally get this concept. Just this weekend we had that great reading about Love in 1Cor. Always a good one.


#13

Seyle, I think you misunderstood something in my post.

I was not in any way indicating that gays don’t want to have their temptation removed. My post was not an inditement of anybody. My example was simply a hypothetical example trying to point out the difference between those that want temptation removed (you, obviously, and many others as well, I’ll concede that), and those that stick it out to the end - be it SSA attraction or OTHER attractions (greed, power, fame, etc.) There are people who die with spiritually unhealthy attractions still in place, by their own will. That’s why they need purged. Again, I’m not talking about you specifically or gays in general I am talking instead about humanity in general.

I believe that God will always answer our prayers IF we ask for something which is good for our salvation. This is what you did, and your prayer was answered.

Some, I am sure, hesitate even to pray because they like things the way they are (again, humanity in general).

Your being a Christian was a way out of your dilemma. You knew enough to pray. You had faith that God would listen. I think the problem is more with people who are not Christian and therefore have idea where to go, although there are certainly some “Christians in training” that have difficulty giving up attractions.

You say that people who are so far gone that they don’t ask God for purgation actually don’t (or can’t) go to purgatory. I’m not sure I agree with this. Many people don’t even recognize that they have spiritually unhealthy attractions, so they don’t ask for help.

And being a child of God is Catholic teaching at it’s finest.

And a mortal sin does not condenm anybody to Hell because somebody is stupid - as you indicate above. If somebody doesn’t know it’s a mortal sin, then that person is not held accountable for it. By definition. So Catholicism isn’t as bad as you thought. :slight_smile:

.


#14

Scripture:

1 Peter 4 1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

If you torture an alcoholic and promise more torture if he drinks again, … Guess what? It won’t work.

It will. It has been proven scientifically:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy

It doesnt’ work for our attachments to other sins either.

Yes, it does. Some simply haven’t arrived at that point yet, where the sin is so painful and detrimental that it makes them fall on their knees and look to God.

I used to suffer from SSA. It really was suffering because I couldn’t control the attraction even though I sincerely believed it was wrong and prayed for God to help me.

There you go. You suffered and that suffering helped to dislodge you from that sin.

No amount of my trying made it leave. Even when I quit trying to resist it and my life becme a huge mess and I suffered greatly the suffering didn’t let up, suffering only gave me additional reasons to try to resist the SSA. People told me that it ment my destiny was to be single and suffer all my life. There’s a Loving God… “I won’t be healing you because I want you to be both single and celibate and to suffer … lots!” Riiiight!!! I didn’t buy it, It’s sad some do because it teaches hopelessness. DO we serve a God of hopelessness?

One day, something different happened. I asked God to show me WHY I had SSA, where did the root of it start? HE showed me. It was a confusion from something I thought was totally unrelated. God took the SSA from me Instantly and competely! There was no suffering from purification.

The purifying from suffering had already taken place.

THere was a sadness that I had been decieved by Satan and some tears from repentance but the purification hd no suffering. There was only IMMENSE JOY and relief. Suffering is not a fruit of the spirit. Now, years have passed. there is no SSA, no temptation at all, no struggle. Only the Joy of being FREE in CHRIST.

Praise God. You have suffered with and for Christ.

Romans 8:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Suffering isn’t what purifies us. God’s love and mercy is what purifies us.

This may sound strange to you, but it is because of God’s love and mercy that we are permitted to suffer and be purified.

For if we did not suffer:

Hebrews 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Therefore, praise God that you suffered.

Every objection I have to the Catholic faith boils down to Justification by faith and the LOVE of God for us. I know Catholics believe God loves us, but so many doctrines I have seen do not demonstrate this.

Perhaps we can discuss each.

We must suffer to be purified.

Directly from Scripture:

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

therealpresence.org/archives/Priesthood/Priesthood_026.htm

Mary couldn’t have ever sinned because then she wouldn’t be completely pure.

That is a misunderstanding of Catholic Doctrine. Mary didn’t sin, not couldn’t sin. She exercized her will.

The Holy Spirit only directly directs a church authority and not the children of God.

God directs all directly.

However, God prevents some from committing error only during certain moments that are important to God’s people. The proof is Scripture. I assume you believe that Scripture is infallible. It is only infallible because the Apostles were led by Scripture to write it without error.

When God inspires someone, that person is infallible at that time.

cont’d


#15

cont’d

The Real Presence of Christ is not with us, walking through our daily lives with us, only through the Eucharist.

Again, a false understanding. Jesus Christ is always present with us.

***1088 **“To accomplish so great a work” - the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation - “Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass not only in the person of his minister, ‘the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,’ but especially in the Eucharistic species. By his power he is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes. He is present in his word since it is he himself who speaks when the holy Scriptures are read in the Church. Lastly, he is present when the Church prays and sings, for he has promised 'where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them.”’
*
But He is present in a special way in the Eucharist.

Don’t any Catholics know FREEDOM from sin nature?

Yes. Read the night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross and the Interior Castle by St. Theresa of Avila and many other Saints which write about the same thing.

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

Why is there so much worry about little things “IS it Mortal to read the missal during Mass?” “How about if liturgal dancers dance?” Frankly, it reminds me of the Pharisees! God isn’t worried about human entrapments like standing or sitting for x number of phrases. He is worried about one thing, love. God is love. Do you Love Him with ALL yout heart mind and strength? Do you also show that love for Him by loving your neighbor?

I agree with you. But love means obedience and love doesn’t mean we disregard God’s Word. Remember, it was disobedience which got us in the mess we’re in.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

God adopt us as His Children. Think about that. How do you treat your children. If they misbehave, you discipline them, yes. But do you discipline them so they will be purer in your presence?

Actually, yes. In fact, they had to pass a test. Are you going to do that again?

No Daddy.

Ok then.

NO, you discipline them out of love, so that they might learn the folly of their ways. Discipline is not all about “punishment” or “suffering” it’s about teaching.

Now you’re getting it.

I’d call a parent that uses pain for all teaching, even when unnecessary, abusive.

So would I. But punishment has its place in child discipline in my household. Anyone leaving their children in my house is forewarned.

God is not abusive.[/RANT]

No. But God disciplines His children.

Sincerely,

De Maria


#16

I did understand this part I didn’t think you meant to indicte anyone

:thumbsup: I agree with this.

What I ment by “stupid” is that committing what qualifies as a mortal sin when you love God very much is doing a stupid thing. I didn’t mean they didn’t know it was mortal, I ment it’s a really dumb decesion.


#17

I doubt that someone who has pure love for God would commit a mortal sin.

Mortal sin has three components: Deliberately chosen, freely chosen, and grave matter (something really awful). Someone who truly loves God would not freely and deliberately choose to do something really awful to their brother or sister, or to themselves.

With regard to missing Mass, etc., someone who really loves God would be very disappointed if they missed Mass, and most likely the omission would have been caused by something outside of their control - thus, not freely done, and not deliberately done, which are two of the three requirements - thus, not a mortal sin.


#18

Missing mass maybe, but when a person is dealing with addictions, this is not the case. People DO deliberaltely do things they do not really want to do. Are you saying that when a person does something they didn’t want to as a result of addiction it wasn’t freely chosen? I’d have to disagree with that - But then I’ve already stated that I don’t agree with the Catholic definition of Mortal sin.


#19

Decisions made under the influence of an addiction wouldn’t seem to be freely chosen. That’s the whole point :slight_smile: Perhaps in early stages, but not later on.

What is your Catholic definition of mortal sin?


#20

What a strange question.

There is no such thing as “my Catholic definition of mortal sin.” There is the Catholic definition. OR there is what I think it should be. I’m not Catholic so I can’t have a personal Catholic definition of mortal sin. I’m not even sure such a thing would be allowed if I were Catholic.

1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131


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