Sunday instead of the Sabbath?


#1

When did the early Christians change from saturday to sunday and what date did this happen.

Isnt this proof that oral tradition and the Church are equal to the bible and that they are not in competiton?

I asked a bible christian that maybe the seventh day adventists were right, because sunday isnt mentioned in the bible. He had no answer.


#2

catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp


#3

When did the early Christians change from saturday to sunday and what date did this happen

When it first became common practice for all of the Church was probably around AD 39-60.

But it is recorded in the Bible that the Apostles first started to meet for fellowship on Sunday’s [usually after dark for fear of the Jews] a matter of months after the Crucifixiction and Resurrection of Christ Jn 20:19 :thumbsup:

To add insult to injury to the Saturday Worshippers, the risen Christ condoned it because He also joined them :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue:


#4

You are correct that there is no explicit statements to testify to Sunday Worship but, there are implicit allusions to it attested here. Mr. James P. Guzek, a writer for Catholic Answers, talks of it in one of his tracks.


#5

My point is that anyone that goes to church on Sunday isnt following sola scriptura. True?


#6

anyone that goes to church on Sunday isnt following sola scriptura. True?

:stuck_out_tongue:

No, false!

While there is no actual instruction in the New Testament that the Sabbath can be moved to a Sunday, neither is there instruction saying it must be kept to a Saturday. :stuck_out_tongue:

If it was wrong in the sight of God, then why did He condone it by appearing to the Apostles when they met on Sunday?

If they met on the day before, that is the SABBATH, why did He not appear to them then? :stuck_out_tongue:

SDA say the Apostles were not authorised to change the day, but my bible distinctly says that Christ authorised them to change whatever they so wanted. Mt 16:19 :stuck_out_tongue:

Case closed, you can argue until the last day but Mt16:19 is still Mt 16:19 :stuck_out_tongue:


#7

In addition to John 20:19 for gathering on the 1st day of the week, so also in Luke 24:30 does the risen Christ celebrate the Eucharist on the 1st day. The passage goes on to show the grace one receives in the Eucharist.


#8

SDAs claim that Constantine changed the day in the 4th century, but there is ample evidence that Christians worshipped on Sunday. St Ignatius of Antioch wrote about how the Jews “no longer kept the sabbath but now order their lives by the Lord’s Day.”


#9

Early christians or Christ never changed the Sabbath to sunday. Many sources from the catholic church substantiate this. Let’s look at a few.

“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”
-Bishop T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884

“The Catholic Church…by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”
-The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893

“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”
-Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174

As we can see from these few quotes as well as in scripture, (there are a whole lot more just like these from catholic sources) that there is not a single evidience in scripture that Christ or the apostles ever changed or had any intention of changing or worshiping on sunday as the Sabbath. It really surprises me to see a catholic forum trying to defend sunday from scripture when there is an overwhelming amount of quotes through the years from catholic sources including the catechism refute any authority from scriptures for the change from Sabbth to sunday. If we look through history we also see that sunday worship came into popularity through paganistic influences in the early church. An excellent source on the History of the Sabbath whith various quotes from historians of the period ect. is sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp
There is nothing wrong with assembling on sunday, but nowhere in scripture will you see it referred to as sanctified for worship.


#10

Here’s what I was told. In the beginning of the Church, the Christians were still Jews and worshiped in the Temple on the Sabbath, then met together on the Lord’s Day, Sunday, for what we would call the Mass. They were looked on as a sect of Judaism, as were the Essenes. At some point, early on, they were expelled from the Temple because they believed and taught that Jesus was the Messiah. Following thier expulsion, they then worshiped on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

Peace,
Linda


#11

If it was wrong in the sight of God, then why did He condone it by appearing to the Apostles when they met on Sunday?

If they met on the day before, that is the SABBATH, why did He not appear to them then?

Perhaps the Lord was deliberately having a laugh :stuck_out_tongue:


#12

Aha caught you out

You all had your best glad rags on for the sabbath.

Today the first day of the week, you are dressed in your working dungarees, stinking of kippers and ‘hey presto’ I’m here!!!

Caught you out again :stuck_out_tongue:


#13

You are pretty well on track here Linda, The early Christians were hated and persecuted because they preached Jesus Christ, hence they were thrown out and they fled. As Christianity spread throughout the roman empire the pagans of rome associated the Christians with the jews (whom the romans absolutely hated ) because the jews were the only ones who kept the seventh day Sabbath as instructed in scripture. So rome started persecuting christians in a large part due to association to the jews because of the Sabbath. In essence the tremendous persecutions by the roman empire eventually led to concessions and compromise of beliefs. Sunday worship has been thoroughly established as pagan in origin. As far back as the Chaldean and Egyptian empires. The first “official” keeping of sunday in the early church I have found started coming into being about 313 A.D with the emporer constantine who mixed christianity with paganism in an effort to gain popularity with both sides in his kingdom. We see the response of the church to the persecution of the recent past and pressure from Constantine to make concessions in the council of Laodecea in A.D 364 The twenty ninth canon of that council reads as follows .
CANON XXIX.
“CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.”

Note the reference to being “judaizers” if they kept the seventh day Sabbath

"Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Third Edition"1). Question: Which is the Sabbath day? "Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. 2). "Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"Answer. “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

As we see here The church openly admits that there is not a single piece of evidence in scripture from Christ or the apostles.

"The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify.

The Catholic Mirror (a publication by Cardinal Gibbons) Sept. 2, 1893- “…the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday.”

I have seen alot of misapplication of a particular scripture on this subject.
“Joh 20:19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.” Douay Rheims 1899

To use this verse as a basis saying they were observing Sabbath goes against alot of church writings and doctrine as we have seen. There is no basis whatsoever in this verse for sunday worship. The verse is self explanatory as to why they were gathered together on saturday night as we call it now, it was because they were afraid of the jews who had just crucified Christ. God bless! :slight_smile:


#14

We can’t ignore John in Rev 1:10
10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Lord’s day is Sunday if he meant Saturday he would have said Sabbath


#15

Nowhere in scripture will you find “the Lord’s day” in reference to sunday, It only appears one time in Rev. 1:10 in fact if we look at the overwhelming evidence that saturday is the true scriptural Sabbath from scripture and also church sources quoted previously we have to conclude that John was in fact referring to the seventh day Sabbath as seen in these scriptures.

“Exo 31:13 Speak to the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: See that you keep my sabbath; because it is a sign between me and you in your generations that you may know that I am the Lord, who sanctify you”

"Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy own will in my holy day, and call the sabbath delightful, and the holy of the Lord glorious, and glorify him, while thou dost not thy own ways, and thy own will is not found, to speak a word: "

"Exo 16:25 And Moses said: Eat it to day, because it is the sabbath of the Lord: to day it shall not be found in the field.
Exo 16:26 Gather it six days; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord, therefore it shall not be found. "

"Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath. "
"Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord of the sabbath also. "
All quotes taken from the Douay Rheims 1899

As we can see scripturally there is overwhelming evidence proving that in the Bible the Lord’s day referred to the seventh day Sabbath. God bless!


#16

I would disagree on any argument which would suggest that John was referring to the Saturday Sabbath as the “Lords day”. We can see in the New Testament that they gathered on the first day of the week, (the 8th day, or Sunday), and if you look at the two non-biblical writings quotes that I provided, the didache was written before the Book of Revelation, and Ignatius was personally taught by John, and this was written only 20 years after John’s death. It is hard to believe that he would get it so wrong in such a short amount of time. And yes in Matthew it says that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and as Lord, he could authorize the church to change it to a Sunday worship.
Why did Jesus allow his disciples to break the sabbath on many occations if he had wanted them to observe it the way the Old Testament did?

Acts 20:7
And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Didache
"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).*


#17

The first point I would like to bring to the table is that I am rather dissapointed that scripture is being used to to try to prove the change from the sanctity of the seventh day Sabbath to the first day of the week sunday, when the church teaches that in fact nowhere in scripture will you find it and in fact that the scripture teaches throughout the Bible all point to saturday as the Sabbath. I am afraid that the verses supplied don’t have any reference to sunday being the first Lord’s day. sunday The second point I would like to point out is your position does not agree with church dogma’s. The church openly admits there is no basis for sunday worship in scripture.

“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”
-Bishop T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884

The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify

The Catholic Mirror (a publication by Cardinal Gibbons) Sept. 2, 1893- “…the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday.”

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Third Edition"1). Question: Which is the Sabbath day? "Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. 2). "Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"Answer. “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Here are a few quotes showing that the early church did in fact observe the seventh day.

2ND CENTURY CHRISTIANS
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath,"
Gieseler’s “Church History,” Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
EARLY CHRISTIANS

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!"
M’Clatchie, “Notes and Queries on China and Japan” (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.
refers to the activities of the Jews of the Diaspora

2ND, 3RD, 4TH CENTURIES
"From the apostles’ time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews’ Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it."
“Sunday a Sabbath.” John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
3rd Century Sabbath Observance

EARLY CHRISTIANS 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands."
“The Anti-Nicene Fathers,” Vol 7,p. 413. From “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles,” a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries

I submit that Christ’s disciples did indeed break the Sabbath…according to church tradition and dogmas… not according to God’s Law. We see another example of this in scripture.

"Mar 7:5 And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?
Mar 7:6 But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.
Mar 7:8 For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.
Mar 7:9 And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said: Honour thy father and thy mother. And He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die.
Mar 7:11 But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban (which is a gift) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee.
Mar 7:12 And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do. " Douay Rheims 1899

God bless!


#18

there is no basis for sunday worship in scripture.

“I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says: ‘No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.’ And lo! the entire civilized world bows down in a reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”
-Bishop T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, Feb. 18, 1884

The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify

The Catholic Mirror (a publication by Cardinal Gibbons) Sept. 2, 1893- “…the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday.”

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Third Edition"1). Question: Which is the Sabbath day? "Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. 2). "Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"Answer. “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Here are a few quotes showing that the early church did in fact observe the seventh day.

2ND CENTURY CHRISTIANS
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath,"
Gieseler’s “Church History,” Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
EARLY CHRISTIANS

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!"
M’Clatchie, “Notes and Queries on China and Japan” (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.
refers to the activities of the Jews of the Diaspora

2ND, 3RD, 4TH CENTURIES
"From the apostles’ time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews’ Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it."
“Sunday a Sabbath.” John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
3rd Century Sabbath Observance

EARLY CHRISTIANS 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands."
“The Anti-Nicene Fathers,” Vol 7,p. 413. From “Constitutions of the Holy Apostles,” a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries

I submit that Christ’s disciples did indeed break the Sabbath…according to church tradition and dogmas… not according to God’s Law. We see another example of this in scripture.

"Mar 7:5 And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?
Mar 7:6 But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.
Mar 7:8 For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.
Mar 7:9 And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said: Honour thy father and thy mother. And He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die.
Mar 7:11 But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban (which is a gift) whatsoever is from me shall profit thee.
Mar 7:12 And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother,
Mar 7:13 Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do. " Douay Rheims 1899

God bless!

“And in the END of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the FIRST DAY of the week…” Matt.28:1
You owe me $1000.00. Just send it to my favorite charity, Catholic Relief Services. Unless you’re going to welch. Herod wasn’t even a welch. Matt.15:9-10. Thanx for the scripture citations(Mark 7:5-13 ) though. The Lord could have been addressing a Seventh Day Adventist convention.Oh, I’m sorry. That would be impossible. Seventh Day Adventism wasn’t INVENTED until 1900 years after our Lord established His Holy Catholic Church, whose scriptures you’ve hi-jacked and now distort and misuse. 2 Pet.2:1

God bless!


#19

praise Him,
Gen.2:2,3 "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made: and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work that He had done. And He blessed the seventh day and He SANCTIFIED it: because in it He had RESTed from all His work which God had created and made."
Psalm 132:8 is a prophecy of Christ’s RES(T)urrectin and ascension into Heaven, “Arise, O Lord into thy RESTING place: thou and the ark(Mary’s Assumption, Sinlessness), which thou hast SANCTIFIED”. On the first day of the week Christ ascended into Heaven,"And it came to pass, whilst He blessed them, He departed from them and was carried up to Heaven(RESTing place)"Luke 24:51, therefore taking REST from all His work(Rom.4.25) that He had NEWly created(2 Cor.5:17) and made. And He blessed the First Day and He SANCTIFIED it(my interpretation).
praise,
You can make that check out to Catholic Relief Services for $1000.00 on my behalf of course. I know you’re good for it.


#20

Hey Threadkiller,

You forgot to mention Acts 20:7,

On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight.

SDAs claim that this was a continuation of the Sabbath service, but the text clearly indicates that they CAME TOGETHER on the first day of the week. BTW, the phrase to “break bread” in the New Testament and early Christian writings referred to the Eucharist.


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