Switzerland bans construction of minarets [CWN]

Swiss voters have surprised pundits by approving a constitutional ban on the construction of new minarets. Four of the nation's 160 mosques currently have minarets-- the spires from which ...

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Vatican and Muslims condemn Swiss minaret ban vote

Hey, I already posted this, slowpoke… LOL

[quote="gilliam, post:2, topic:177976"]
Vatican and Muslims condemn Swiss minaret ban vote

[/quote]

Sigh - don't really know what to think of this, I guess.

Rome, Italy, Nov 30, 2009 / 03:52 am (CNA).- Archbishop Basile Georges Casmoussa of Mosul said last week that last Thursdya’s anti-Christian attacks in Iraq which destroyed a church and damaged a convent “show that there is a strategy to erase our cultural heritage and more than 2000 years of history” on the part of Muslim extremists.
In an interview with L’Osservatore Romano, the archbishop said these Islamic groups “want to destabilize the atmosphere of trust in our country. We must oppose this atmosphere of hatred with strength and with prayer,” he added.
The strategy of these groups “is clear,” the archbishop continued. “As soon as the situation becomes calm and it appears there is a chance Christians can return to their homes in their cities, the terror and violence reappear with greater threats.”
“This is the not the first time extremist groups lashed out at the symbols of the Christian community in Iraq. And it is not the first time that priests and religious have paid with their blood,” he explained.
After recalling the March 2008 assassination of his predecessor Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho, Archbishop Casmoussa said, “It seems like nobody is able to guarantee the safety of Iraqi Christians.”
“The only path to take to placate violence is dialogue,” the archbishop continued. “Only then will we be able to isolate these extremist groups and become a tolerant country. Now we must seek to be close to our small community and give ourselves strength and encouragement.”

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=401876

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17865

The government said it accepted the decision, and that the construction of new minarets would no longer be permitted.
Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said: "Concerns [about Islamic fundamentalism] have to be taken seriously.

Maybe, the Muslim Community needs to step away from the fundamentalist?

The president of Zurich’s Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC: "This will cause major problems because during this campaign mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.
“Islamaphobia has increased intensively.”

I believe there is a Vatican rule that no Catholic Church can be larger than St. Peter's in Rome. I have no problem with the Swiss prohibiting more minarets from which Muslims are called to prayer. How many minarets are needed to call Muslims to prayer? Switzerland is a small country. It is Christian. It must do what it must to keep its identity.

Has Saudi Arabia allowed the construction of a Catholic Church within its borders from which the Angelius could be played on its bells to call all Catholics to prayer? pewsitter.com/view_news_id_7306.php

Did the Muslims ever restore that 5,000 year old Buddha they blew up? And I'm not even going to discuss their attitudes re. Jews.

Muslims need to get their own people in line. They are intolerant of other nations, cultures, religions, and people. They've immigrated into other countries and rather than being absorbed into that culture, they try to change the culture of the host country. Might be better for them to stay home.

As JPII warned a few years ago, Christian Europe may be on the verge of being snuffed out by a combination of democracy and the high Muslim birth rate.

European countries have condemned democratic Israel for making sure that Judaism is not voted out of office in Israel.

Yet, now Europe is facing the analogous prospect of having Christianity voted forever out of office by Islam's teaming millions there.

I think that the problem is related to Europe's Catholics and Prorestants making life easier for themselves by using birth control to maximize sex without the burden of the risk of children, so that they currently have a shrinking population, while the Moslems don't use birth control nearly as much, so that their poipulation is growing vastly.

There is a growing prospect that in a single generation -- 20 years -- Islam could use democracy to out-vote the Christians, shut down democracy in several key European countries, and functionally deliver European nuclear arsenals over to radical Islam!

I and my wife were talking to a French couple in a hotel hot tub in Colorado Springs recently. I asked the wife if they had any children. No, she answered, why go through the trouble? I asked if they were Catholic. Yes, she answered, but they did not go to church -- who needs it?, she asked. Are you aware, I added, that in 20 years French law might require you to wear a burka? The wife burst out laughing, but the husband was quiet -- he knew what I was talking about. He quietly explained to her in French about the growing number of Muslims in France, and therefore of Muslim voters, and how that simple, unbearable fact could cause 1700 year old European Christian institutions to be shut down and outlawed in France. "Oh," the wife said quietly, "I didn't know."

But then she answered, "You men worry too much."

I think the French lady was right:

ft.com/cms/s/0/123ade02-4e6f-11dc-85e7-0000779fd2ac,dwp_uuid=f4f78a4e-50b6-11dc-86e2-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
Head count belies vision of ‘Eurabia’
By Simon Kuper in Paris

*
Most academics who have analysed the demographics dismiss such predictions.
Jytte Klausen, a professor of politics at Brandeis University who studies European Muslims, says: “It’s being advocated by people who don’t consult the numbers. All these claims are really emotional claims.” Sometimes they are made by Muslim or far-right groups, who share an interest in exaggerating the numbers.
Nominal Muslims – whether religious or not – account for 3-4 per cent of the European Union’s total population of 493m. Their percentage should rise, but far more modestly than the extreme predictions. That is chiefly because Muslims, both in Europe and the main “emigrating countries” of Turkey and north Africa, are having fewer babies.
But the birth-rates of Europe’s Muslim immigrants, though still above the EU’s average, are falling. The fertility rate of north African women in France has been dropping since 1981, say Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse in their book Integrating Islam. “The longer immigrant women live in France, the fewer children they have; their fertility rate approaches that of native-born French women.”
At the last count Algerian women living in France averaged an estimated 2.57 children, against 1.94 for French women overall.
The decline in birth-rates is more dramatic in north Africa itself. Women there use contraceptives more and have babies later than they did. In Algeria and Morocco 35 years ago, the average woman had seven children. According to the United Nations, it is now 2.5 in Algeria (about the same as Turkey), 2.8 in Morocco, and falling in all of them. The US Central Intelligence Agency’s World Factbook has even lower estimates of Algerian, Tunisian and Turkish birth-rates: below France’s rate and below the replacement level of 2.1 children per woman. Emigrating countries are no longer exporting high birth rates to Europe.
At the same time, northern Europe has seen a rebound in fertility. Several countries have introduced policies – such as more generous parental leave and better childcare – to encourage people to have babies.
France’s birth-rate is near the replacement level of 2.1. The UK’s fertility rate is at its highest since 1980, thanks largely to older or immigrant mothers – only a minority of whom were Muslims. The number of babies born in Germany has rebounded since the post-war low recorded in 2005. Cash incentives appear to have helped but birth-rates in southern and eastern Europe remain low.
The US National Intelligence Council predicts there will be between 23m and 38m Muslims in the EU in 2025 – 5-8 per cent of the population. But after 2025 the Muslim population should stop growing so quickly, given its falling birth-rate. In short, Islamicisation – let alone sharia law – is not a demographic prospect for Europe.*

I think I have to agree with both of the preceding posts.

While the "20 years" prediction is a "possibility", it is clearly a "worst case" one. It would likely take much more time since there are many - many factors that cannot be included in any one given study. And many reasons that may nevers how ip in ANY study.

For instance, why do muslims come to Europe. Is it strictly for the Work? Are they All, or at least the majority, strict fundemental Muslims? What will happen to these people when they are exposed to the prevailing cultures of Europe - and more importantly the first and second generation grow up in this culture? Also what part will intermarriage play in the scenerio(s)

That being said though I can see it being quite clear that a greater muslim influence is virtually guaranteed if they continue to 1) bear more children than native europeans, and 2) encourage others of their families to immegrate to Europe.

Peace
James

[quote="JRKH, post:9, topic:177976"]
I think I have to agree with both of the preceding posts.

While the "20 years" prediction is a "possibility", it is clearly a "worst case" one. It would likely take much more time since there are many - many factors that cannot be included in any one given study. And many reasons that may nevers how ip in ANY study.

For instance, why do muslims come to Europe. Is it strictly for the Work? Are they All, or at least the majority, strict fundemental Muslims? What will happen to these people when they are exposed to the prevailing cultures of Europe - and more importantly the first and second generation grow up in this culture? Also what part will intermarriage play in the scenerio(s)

That being said though I can see it being quite clear that a greater muslim influence is virtually guaranteed if they continue to 1) bear more children than native europeans, and 2) encourage others of their families to immegrate to Europe.

Peace
James

[/quote]

You raised some very good points. I know several Muslims in the United States and they are not fundamentalists at all, in fact, they came out of Iran during the rulership of the fundamentalists. Many Muslims are in fact, just like the Catholic lady from France. They don't really practice their religion. The crazy zealots are not the majority, I am sure.

Very true, but we all should also remember that history is rife withe examples of times when a few Crazy zealots have been known to force thir views onto others regardless of the majority view.

Peace
James

[quote="JRKH, post:11, topic:177976"]
Very true, but we all should also remember that history is rife withe examples of times when a few Crazy zealots have been known to force thir views onto others regardless of the majority view.

Peace
James

[/quote]

Oh absolutely. Look at 9/11/2001! I just think we shouldn't have blanket discrimination against muslims or middle eastern people because of those crazy zealots.

[quote="CHRISTINE77, post:12, topic:177976"]
Oh absolutely. Look at 9/11/2001! I just think we shouldn't have blanket discrimination against muslims or middle eastern people because of those crazy zealots.

[/quote]

Agreed. But if I may offer an example of what I mean.

Adolf Hitler made no secret of his hatred of the Jews and blaming them, along with communists, for all of Germany's woes. Now most Germans had heard this and perhaps many even bought into it to some extent. After all Anti-semetism was fairly common in most if not all Christian countries to at least some extent.
HOWEVER
Most Germans in 1935 or 1937 would not have thought Hitler and the Nazi's would go to the extremes that they did. They just assumed in the ealy days that it was just rhetoric and such and that Jews might be deported etc. But Gassed??? By the Millions??? Heavens no.

It is possible for extremists to play on peoples mild beliefs and fears and get just enough support, or at least aquiesence, to allow them the power to do great evil. This is what we all must be on the watch for both in Europe and in America.

Peace
James

[quote="aicirt, post:6, topic:177976"]
I believe there is a Vatican rule that no Catholic Church can be larger than St. Peter's in Rome. I have no problem with the Swiss prohibiting more minarets from which Muslims are called to prayer. How many minarets are needed to call Muslims to prayer? Switzerland is a small country. It is Christian. It must do what it must to keep its identity.

Has Saudi Arabia allowed the construction of a Catholic Church within its borders from which the Angelius could be played on its bells to call all Catholics to prayer? pewsitter.com/view_news_id_7306.php

Did the Muslims ever restore that 5,000 year old Buddha they blew up? And I'm not even going to discuss their attitudes re. Jews.

Muslims need to get their own people in line. They are intolerant of other nations, cultures, religions, and people. They've immigrated into other countries and rather than being absorbed into that culture, they try to change the culture of the host country. Might be better for them to stay home.

[/quote]

very well put

Now for those who enjoy irony. Neither I nor any other Judge in the Jewish State of Israel would tolerate banning Moslems from being able to construct minarets on their mosques. Such a ban would be deemed to be a gross infringement of Moslem freedom of worship and the right of Moslems to practice their religion under Israeli law.

It may be ironic, but it’s definitely the right thing to do. Awesome!:thumbsup:

Minarets for Spires? [EMAIL="author%40victorhanson.com"]Victor Davis Hanson[/EMAIL]]

Perhaps the Swiss plebiscite to ban the construction of new minarets will spark a much-needed ecumenical dialogue between Western Christianity and Islam. Here's a suggestion: In response to the Swiss model, Saudi Arabia or Gaza or Iran would in turn allow new Christian churches to be built to accommodate converts or immigrants, but would insist on no ostentatious spires. Who could object to such moral equivalence?

12/01 03:26 PM

[quote="gilliam, post:17, topic:177976"]
Minarets for Spires? [EMAIL="author%40victorhanson.com"]Victor Davis Hanson[/EMAIL]]

Perhaps the Swiss plebiscite to ban the construction of new minarets will spark a much-needed ecumenical dialogue between Western Christianity and Islam. Here's a suggestion: In response to the Swiss model, Saudi Arabia or Gaza or Iran would in turn allow new Christian churches to be built to accommodate converts or immigrants, but would insist on no ostentatious spires. Who could object to such moral equivalence?

12/01 03:26 PM

[/quote]

The Muslims. If it wasn't so, we wouldn't have the structures of other religions being bombed including the recent bombing in Mindamdo, Phillipines, of a Catholic Church.

The Muslim religion is the only one I know about that actually tells its adherents to kill others who are not of their faith. They want it both ways. Muslims want to conquer. We must understand this. North Africa, land of St. Augustine, was Catholic. They became Muslim at the point of a sword. We're giving democracy to Iraq but it will have Shaia (sp?) law. England has already instituted Shaia law. How would you like that: laws within laws.

And people wonder why Catholicism is dying in Western Europe. I'm sure someone will call me a cafeteria Catholic, but I happen to agree with the Swiss voters and not the Vatican.

[quote="dipper, post:8, topic:177976"]
I think the French lady was right:

Financial Times - Head count belies vision of ‘Eurabia’
By Simon Kuper in Paris

Most academics who have analysed the demographics dismiss such predictions.
Jytte Klausen, a professor of politics at Brandeis University who studies European Muslims, says: “It’s being advocated by people who don’t consult the numbers. All these claims are really emotional claims.” Sometimes they are made by Muslim or far-right groups, who share an interest in exaggerating the numbers.
Nominal Muslims – whether religious or not – account for 3-4 per cent of the European Union’s total population of 493m. Their percentage should rise, but far more modestly than the extreme predictions. That is chiefly because Muslims, both in Europe and the main “emigrating countries” of Turkey and north Africa, are having fewer babies.
But the birth-rates of Europe’s Muslim immigrants, though still above the EU’s average, are falling. The fertility rate of north African women in France has been dropping since 1981, say Jonathan Laurence and Justin Vaisse in their book Integrating Islam. “The longer immigrant women live in France, the fewer children they have; their fertility rate approaches that of native-born French women.”
At the last count Algerian women living in France averaged an estimated 2.57 children, against 1.94 for French women overall.
The decline in birth-rates is more dramatic in north Africa itself. Women there use contraceptives more and have babies later than they did. In Algeria and Morocco 35 years ago, the average woman had seven children. According to the United Nations, it is now 2.5 in Algeria (about the same as Turkey), 2.8 in Morocco, and falling in all of them. The US Central Intelligence Agency’s World Factbook has even lower estimates of Algerian, Tunisian and Turkish birth-rates: below France’s rate and below the replacement level of 2.1 children per woman. Emigrating countries are no longer exporting high birth rates to Europe.
At the same time, northern Europe has seen a rebound in fertility. Several countries have introduced policies – such as more generous parental leave and better childcare – to encourage people to have babies.
France’s birth-rate is near the replacement level of 2.1. The UK’s fertility rate is at its highest since 1980, thanks largely to older or immigrant mothers – only a minority of whom were Muslims. The number of babies born in Germany has rebounded since the post-war low recorded in 2005. Cash incentives appear to have helped but birth-rates in southern and eastern Europe remain low.
The US National Intelligence Council predicts there will be between 23m and 38m Muslims in the EU in 2025 – 5-8 per cent of the population. But after 2025 the Muslim population should stop growing so quickly, given its falling birth-rate. In short, Islamicisation – let alone sharia law – is not a demographic prospect for Europe.

[/quote]

Dipper:

Muslims don't need to become the "Majority Population" to take over. They just need a unified vision, which they have, and which they're willing to kill & die for. Part of what you and the French lady ignored was what happened not only in France, but elsewhere in Europe during the past few years (a Sampling):

Front Page Magazine - Paris Burning
Bloomberg - French riots in Paris suburbs spread: Cars, library torched
Guardian - Three nights of riots in French town after 21-year old dies in police custody
[LEFT]foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313024,00.html

And, then there's those LISTS telling people where they shouldn't go if they valued their safety - One that said police wouldn't respond if they were attacked in one of the zones that was listed. In this case, one list covers 12% of France! And, Europe has the same problem as France....

Jihad Watch - The 751 No-Go Zones of France
[/FONT]ATLAS DES ZONES URBAINES SENSIBLES (NO-GO ZONES)
[LEFT]i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm
The Gates of Vienna - The expanding No-Go Zones
Telegraph - Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims
Brussels Journal - Ramadan Rioting in Europe's No-Go Areas

[FONT=Trebuchet MS]I could list more links, but it's getting late. I believe the article you quoted was really optimistic, because they were basing their article on the wrong assumptions... Islamists don't need to have a majority to intimidate the rest of the population - They just need people and politicians who no longer believe in themselves, their religion, their country, or their culture. That's already happened in most of Europe.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael[/FONT] [/LEFT]
[/LEFT]

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